Joel and Troy discuss Church Discipline and compare it to what we see throughout Church History.
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00:00 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Revived Thoughts is a production of Revived Studios.
00:08 --> 00:11 [SPEAKER_01]: This is Troy Angel, and you are listening to Revived Thoughts.
00:18 --> 00:21 [SPEAKER_00]: All right, we got another revived conversation today.
00:21 --> 00:22 [SPEAKER_00]: That's right, revive conversation.
00:22 --> 00:39 [SPEAKER_00]: This is an episode where we don't have a sermon, Troy and I just talk about some specific topic that is somehow related with church history and what we can extrapolate or apply church history from, especially how it might relate to what we have going on today.
00:39 --> 00:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Did you guys hear my phone ring just now?
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00:42 --> 00:43 [SPEAKER_01]: No, I didn't.
00:43 --> 00:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I didn't.
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00:45 --> 00:45 [SPEAKER_00]: I hit.
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01:41 --> 01:56 [SPEAKER_01]: the patrons are great and we had one of them right in and basically say hey my pastor was listening they said they'd not only a patreon but they actually showed their pastor are the yonhust sermon and they were like hey we were wondering about church discipline I'm not sure how the conversation got there.
01:57 --> 02:19 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... but he was kind of like you know what you guys have never done a provide conversation on church discipline and i realized no you know what we haven't actually uh... done one on that and so i thought it was a great idea to pitch it to Joel very quickly put it together and here we are having this conversation right now Joel i'm gonna i usually you throw me the questions i would at you this time one of a third what is your initial thoughts on church discipline go
02:21 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, it's good.
02:23 --> 02:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, uh, I don't know what you want to be like.
02:26 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I am curious.
02:27 --> 02:33 [SPEAKER_00]: My question was, have you in your living memory ever witnessed any type of church?
02:33 --> 02:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
02:34 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's, you have.
02:35 --> 02:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, okay.
02:36 --> 02:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So, what do you mean by church discipline as in like, have I seen a congregant brought forward and goes to the process?
02:43 --> 02:44 [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's true.
02:44 --> 02:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess there's the I saw a very awkward pastor get kicked out of his church one time, and Hey, that was pretty good But at any time any time where someone in the congregation is being held accountable, I guess.
02:58 --> 03:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so I this is very memorable to me because it and I I don't want to go into the detail the basically somebody
03:07 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_01]: So it was just a church and they were like, and they were, and it's not their fault.
03:10 --> 03:10 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not their fault at all.
03:10 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_01]: It's just went wrong way it's up there.
03:12 --> 03:13 [SPEAKER_01]: So we were in town.
03:13 --> 03:14 [SPEAKER_01]: They were visiting a church.
03:14 --> 03:15 [SPEAKER_01]: They were like, hey, this church is great.
03:16 --> 03:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I want to take you guys to church.
03:17 --> 03:18 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, yeah, let's go, let's go check out your church.
03:18 --> 03:19 [SPEAKER_01]: We're, you know, we're excited.
03:20 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_01]: And we, in the person's like, this person's in the church.
03:23 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_01]: We're like, we can't wait.
03:24 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_01]: We get there.
03:25 --> 03:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a guest feature.
03:26 --> 03:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay.
03:26 --> 03:27 [SPEAKER_01]: It's like an elder he stepped in.
03:29 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't remember what his servant was about because he just kept talking about the title and the title is He was called behind the red door And whatever his servant was about it was like what happens behind the red door But the dude spent like 30 minutes talking about the title his servants.
03:41 --> 03:44 [SPEAKER_01]: I have no clue And I was like this is not the greatest servant.
03:44 --> 03:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I prefer her boy And then at the end they the head pastor gets up and he's like, hey everybody and like the elders are standing behind him And you can tell they're super uncomfortable And he gets up and he's like, hey everybody.
03:55 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I know this is sudden, but I stepping down as your pastor
03:59 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, but I just want to give like one last final hurrah and uh, what do you call that like a benediction to you all because I've done it so many times over the last 20 years with you or whatever it was He's like go and people and like you can tell like one elder like almost moves to like take the mic from him but hold himself back and it's super awkward and he's like I'd love to like say goodbye to you come down and say our families can be heading out or whatever so come say goodbye.
04:21 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm I'm sorry.
04:22 --> 04:22 [SPEAKER_01]: It's going
04:24 --> 04:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And we leave in the first there was with us like I'm so sorry, you know like it's not your fault.
04:28 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_01]: How could you have known like, but that's so that was awkwardly Emblades in the mind for a long time.
04:33 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: And so the structure was getting Look, I mean, you can only assume something very scandalous happened and and I don't and again It was definitely something you couldn't have known was going to happen, but right the so I saw that happen once as a guest There church that was really awkward.
04:51 --> 04:51 [SPEAKER_01]: It was a big church.
04:51 --> 04:52 [SPEAKER_01]: I was big enough that like
04:53 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, nobody was looking at us there, but I definitely, and I've always wondered, you know, what was it that he did that God I don't kicked out.
04:59 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I know it's not my place, but I'm a curious human, right?
05:03 --> 05:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's been 15 years now, never know the answer because all I know is behind the red door.
05:09 --> 05:17 [SPEAKER_00]: I do feel like Churches Flynn directed towards leadership, is something that we do see.
05:17 --> 05:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And understandably so, they are the leaders, like that is something that needs to be kept in check and you know, you need to be aware of.
05:26 --> 05:28 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm trying to think of the last time there was
05:29 --> 05:48 [SPEAKER_00]: Church discipline towards a congregate, you know, like someone in the in the congregation and I feel like that's something that's does not scale Super easily like when when your congregation gets really big like it's easier to do if there's a hundred people in your church Harder to do if you have a thousand plus, you know, people actually seeing I mean There are people who make the case that's exactly why there shouldn't be big churches.
05:48 --> 05:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they use the case of church discipline aspect to it
05:51 --> 06:08 [SPEAKER_01]: as like hey your church if your church is so big you couldn't realistically do church discipline then your church is too big because you're obviously the pastor's the shepherd of the flock doesn't know it's congregation I would still visit a church just large I don't know that would keep me from you know you
06:09 --> 06:24 [SPEAKER_01]: We many of the pastors that we cover out of my thoughts have huge thousand plus people in their congregation so that I don't think that is an instant disqualifier But it's very good point that like you're if your shepherd could physically not know you well enough to discipline you if you need to do to is very good point
06:25 --> 06:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, with that said, like he said, I can't think of it.
06:28 --> 06:35 [SPEAKER_01]: And I hear you hear stories like if you hear talk to somebody who's got, they say, oh, you know, I have this church, this church did this to me.
06:35 --> 06:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I've just never seen it.
06:36 --> 06:41 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't, I feel like at some point is something many, many churches definitely stopped doing.
06:42 --> 06:42 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think that you know,
06:43 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_01]: If you went to the church and you said, hey, my wife and our native, or maybe the church would then step in or something, but without that level of work coming to you, I don't think the church would really get involved whatsoever at all.
06:55 --> 06:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is, you know, we talk about things about church history that are unique.
06:59 --> 07:00 [SPEAKER_01]: We live in unique time periods.
07:00 --> 07:02 [SPEAKER_01]: We've covered so much of it.
07:02 --> 07:05 [SPEAKER_01]: This is probably another one that is very unique to us.
07:05 --> 07:07 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that we live in a particularly.
07:07 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_01]: lack of church discipline era where they're where for many many churches there is no form of church discipline and I would even say for many churches you know they may have a structure technically written in the bylaws somewhere but they've probably either only enacted it when there's like a scandal or they've only kind of contemplated and acted it in those time periods and even I will even say I'll even go a step further
07:31 --> 07:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Um, enjoy you might, you might push back on this one, but I would even say a lot of times I think the church looks almost more like a corporation like a PR department HR department stepping in Then it does the church discipline model we're supposed to see in scripture like there are more about, you know, if you're, especially the bigger churches when the pastor gets in the scandal, it's kind of like how do we circle the wagon and uh, you know, clean up the PR and the HR on this.
07:53 --> 07:55 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to send the head pastor on sabbatical.
07:55 --> 07:56 [SPEAKER_01]: He's going to go to therapy.
07:56 --> 07:58 [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get him back here because he's the money.
07:58 --> 07:59 [SPEAKER_01]: It seems more like
07:59 --> 08:06 [SPEAKER_01]: that kind of style of stuff that it does the, you know, Matthew 18 style of Church Discipline that we see prescribed by God.
08:08 --> 08:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I don't know.
08:08 --> 08:10 [SPEAKER_00]: I think I might push back a little bit in this sense.
08:10 --> 08:19 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yes, there are certainly churches and that is not hard to imagine or hard to relate with seeing that or or thinking of examples of that.
08:21 --> 08:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I would imagine though amongst our listeners, there are probably
08:26 --> 08:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Lots of them that belong to churches that take these instructions on church discipline seriously and have ways to implement.
08:36 --> 08:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I do know people that have been church disciplined that the church has come, I mean not well, but like I, you know, I've had conversations with them where they said,
08:50 --> 09:07 [SPEAKER_00]: know like yeah there's some examples I can think of where hearing testimonies from people are such that say you know I was living with my girlfriend or something like that and the church had to come to us and explain that they couldn't be a member or something like that because of because of these situations.
09:07 --> 09:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it does exist.
09:09 --> 09:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I also kind of maybe would push back on the sentiment that it is a uniquely modern era issue like I I and I don't know for sure I might be in my words here, but I feel like that's just kind of human I feel like there's probably errors throughout the past 2000 years in church histories where this topic also was relaxed on
09:32 --> 09:43 [SPEAKER_01]: This one I will say I can step into I look I mean of course there are maybe a pocket from you know 750 to 830 right I'm not gonna say that it's always been this way but I will say when we look at the air as we look through
09:44 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: Puritans of New England, you weren't, the church discipline was very strong because the church discipline was government, right?
09:51 --> 10:01 [SPEAKER_01]: We just did an episode on Edmund Calamate where the church, you know, was government and it was like, hey, bishops can't just do whatever they want, if they do, they're not literally God, right?
10:01 --> 10:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we have, we do see very strong areas at the Catholic Church right over Europe,
10:05 --> 10:07 [SPEAKER_01]: definitely cherished a plan was strong.
10:08 --> 10:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The retina process and you could not do what you wanted in Calvin's Geneva, right?
10:12 --> 10:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that was certainly had to follow the rules.
10:15 --> 10:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Same with John Knox, a Scotland, same with New, you know, the Puritan era while they were promo.
10:21 --> 10:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, once the Puritans lost their power in the late 1600s in England,
10:27 --> 10:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You could do maybe a little bit more than before, but the English and church could still discipline you.
10:31 --> 10:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I'd say it was really the turn of the late 600's, early 1700's, when we set kind of start to see a little bit of a die out of that, especially in Europe at large.
10:40 --> 10:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But I would say that contributed to the era that we live into, like we are living in the kind of afterburn of that more so than not.
10:47 --> 11:09 [SPEAKER_01]: when the 1700s in America certainly you could still be church discipline pretty regularly and even in the 1800s and 1900s the idea of a church discipline early in the 1800s was still present for many different Christians the idea of your pastor disfell it I when I talked about John Brown he got disfell it shipped from his church so like they were still practicing these things I it just has become a lot less common in the 50 years and I think part of it
11:11 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: is when there are 12 churches in your town and they're all first baptists of some kind or whatever it is and you have a car and you can drive just as quickly to one as the other what does it even mean to be church discipline?
11:24 --> 11:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how much power does that have over you?
11:28 --> 11:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Compared to
11:30 --> 11:37 [SPEAKER_01]: 200 years ago when there's one or two churches in town, you have to ride there by buggy and take all day or your horse or you get a walk, it's a big deal.
11:37 --> 11:46 [SPEAKER_01]: And in that church where to discommunicate, you were to kick you out, you have that most maybe one other option, maybe maybe two or three, but it's not that many and that's kind of a big deal.
11:46 --> 11:48 [SPEAKER_01]: You see what I'm saying like, I think part of
11:48 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: It's not just that we're lazy people, it's also part, you know, or those kind of things we always put on modern era.
11:53 --> 12:00 [SPEAKER_01]: It's also partially because it doesn't have the same effect that it would have had in the past just by convenience.
12:01 --> 12:11 [SPEAKER_00]: I also feel like there is a, in those areas, you know, when we're talking, 1500, 1600s, these, they're establishing something,
12:12 --> 12:12 [SPEAKER_00]: that's new.
12:13 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_00]: There is taking a lot of work.
12:14 --> 12:28 [SPEAKER_00]: And so it takes a lot of work to shape that, the rigid structure of what those beliefs are being founded in that structure that is taking hold in a way that we just don't have today.
12:28 --> 12:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like church has planned back then had to happen or Protestantism would would
12:35 --> 12:37 [SPEAKER_00]: deteriorate at a faster.
12:37 --> 12:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, arguably.
12:39 --> 12:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, look at where we're now, but the, I mean, we had a few.
12:42 --> 12:44 [SPEAKER_01]: We've had good hundreds of years.
12:44 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing, we're doing okay.
12:45 --> 12:48 [SPEAKER_01]: We certainly say it would in the Catholic thought we would.
12:48 --> 12:52 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm saying, like, it could have been a little out after 50 years or something like that.
12:52 --> 13:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It could have if they weren't enforcing these biblical principles in a way that I guess, I guess a lot of churches don't feel the need to,
13:03 --> 13:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Because Christianity is such established, you know, it's not a survivability type of situation like it was back then I feel like.
13:21 --> 13:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Here's another thought too.
13:22 --> 13:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean when you're doing churches, but you so this is the average congregate.
13:26 --> 13:32 [SPEAKER_01]: The average person even know enough about how the church is supposed to run to have thoughts on things like a church discipline.
13:32 --> 13:33 [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?
13:33 --> 13:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I'm not trying to say everyone is stupid.
13:36 --> 13:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying.
13:37 --> 13:45 [SPEAKER_01]: When people go to a church, they're not the theology and the doctrine for many people, not for everybody, but for many of them is not the reason they pick the church they go to.
13:46 --> 13:53 [SPEAKER_01]: They pick the church they go to because it feels warm, because they like the people, maybe it's the place they got saved, they first heard about Jesus.
13:53 --> 13:56 [SPEAKER_01]: There might be very legitimately awesome reasons for that to be their church.
13:57 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But doctrine theology is stuff like that is oftentimes not even in the list of the top five and they wouldn't know that to even be so these people aren't deeply thinking about those kinds of topics There's something like church discipline which is a sticky gray kind of confusing issue even you know on a good day
14:17 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Is that really going to be something that's pressing down on them so much that they ever think that they need it?
14:21 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_01]: And if the pastor doesn't lead it because again, he's also like, these people aren't, you know, usually thinking of that.
14:26 --> 14:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You see what I say?
14:27 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, nobody's really thinking about this because it's just such an odd one that like, the pastor's not going to bring it up because it's kind of uncomfortable for the congregation.
14:33 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The congregation doesn't even know they're missing it.
14:35 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And it just kind of ends up being something we just stopped doing somewhere along the way.
14:40 --> 14:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, you and I grew up in slightly different circles and we did in the circles that I grew up in.
14:47 --> 14:50 [SPEAKER_00]: The pastor would preach sermons on church this one.
14:50 --> 14:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that was something that was a part of the rotation of topics to address.
14:55 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when it came up in the passages that we are going through, that would be a part of the sermon series.
15:00 --> 15:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And I feel like that's the case with a lot of,
15:03 --> 15:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I hesitate to use the air quote, you know, like Bible preaching churches, they're not going to shy away from this.
15:09 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_01]: And I feel like it's more prevalent in smaller congregations, but when I talk about it, I guess I'm thinking of at large, when you say Protestants are declining, I'm thinking of the movement at law, and I don't know you're sure if I'd be Protestants are declining.
15:24 --> 15:26 [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm thinking of the at large mainline denominations.
15:26 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not thinking about your small, your small, local church that's really preaching well.
15:33 --> 15:35 [SPEAKER_01]: That's trying to stick by the book.
15:35 --> 15:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I think those churches, like you, are mentioning, are still doing church discipline.
15:39 --> 15:51 [SPEAKER_01]: But I think if we were to take a poll of 100 churches, probably it's not what it would you disagree to say it's probably not unsafe to say seven to eight to 10 of them have not practiced church just up until probably in the last year or two.
15:51 --> 15:58 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's kind of the group I'm thinking of, not the faithful one, one or two that is still trying to do it, but the at large.
15:58 --> 16:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And that is different than what we would see in history where I think a lot more of them would have been doing it.
16:03 --> 16:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:04 --> 16:14 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm curious, you're up bringing overlapping with again, what I would consider to be a church with a larger congregation.
16:14 --> 16:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I think when it's okay to say that a church, I went to a Southern Baptist church, you know, when an upbringing, when I started when I started my teenage years, I went to a Southern Baptist church of three to four thousand people.
16:24 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: It was one of the biggest ones at North Florida.
16:25 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't even think it is one of the biggest ones anymore.
16:27 --> 16:33 [SPEAKER_01]: But at the time it was, the pastor of it had at one point even been the president of the Southern Baptist Convention in Florida.
16:33 --> 16:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So like he was a pretty, you know, that was a large, well-to-do church, very different than the church that you grew up in Joel, which was a bit smaller, was certainly.
16:43 --> 16:47 [SPEAKER_01]: What, when did you hear about church discipline?
16:47 --> 16:52 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, did you hear, was it, was it not until you went to college or when you, in your own Bible reading?
16:52 --> 16:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like, was it something like that?
16:53 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to put it on the guy that I, is it could have been me not paying attention, and you know, but I don't remember.
16:59 --> 17:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And I, I was a teenager, so it's very possible that like it just missed me.
17:03 --> 17:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember it ever coming up.
17:05 --> 17:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And if it did ever come up, I think it was like, we had to church just to plant a pastor.
17:09 --> 17:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Now it was like the only time if it ever came up it was something like that I don't recall a hearing about it at all I don't recall it I don't recall learning that there's this idea of church discipline the church to me That sounded when I first heard about it when we were Bible college I heard that I was like that's kind of Catholic right?
17:25 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_01]: what are we doing here guys we're not supposed to have a surprise to find that that was a biblical precedent that we were supposed to actually have a church be doing this together and that kind of stuff to me I was like well the church controlling how you behave I'm pretty sure that's Catholic guys that's not who we are I had a lot of each some of you are listening and going whoa he had a lot to learn and some of you might be listening and going yeah I kind of still feel that way so I hopefully we have this picture of here
17:48 --> 17:51 [SPEAKER_00]: What so being a church history podcast?
17:51 --> 17:53 [SPEAKER_00]: What is your insights?
17:53 --> 17:56 [SPEAKER_00]: What's your take away from the historical application?
17:56 --> 17:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So obviously historically speaking, look, you have the extremes.
18:00 --> 18:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Calvin, we talked about him as it magisterium where they were literally like hunting down anything.
18:05 --> 18:06 [SPEAKER_01]: People were going to jail.
18:07 --> 18:10 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was cool in the sense of like everyone was equal.
18:10 --> 18:12 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a really great concept that I'm glad he brought to the world.
18:13 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Not so great,
18:17 --> 18:22 [SPEAKER_01]: That's the direction the church needs to go in is the state power run institution.
18:22 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I know there are people, it's a growing movement who had disagreed with me on that statement.
18:26 --> 18:28 [SPEAKER_01]: They would go absolutely the church in the state should blend again.
18:28 --> 18:31 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't think that's what the best direction is.
18:31 --> 18:35 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that it, I mean, it worked for God John Calvin and Konjiniva for a time.
18:36 --> 18:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But I don't see that scriptorally, that's the direction we're meant the church to be.
18:41 --> 18:43 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's what we're looking for, I think.
18:44 --> 18:47 [SPEAKER_01]: The Puritans, though they did a lot of really good things, I really appreciate them.
18:47 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think controlling people's behavior the way they did was actually what they got wrong.
18:53 --> 19:00 [SPEAKER_01]: When the Puritans era cooled and it cooled off painfully after the Salemwood trials in America, it was the great awakening that brought people back to life.
19:00 --> 19:03 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was done by Jonathan Edwards, George Whitfield.
19:04 --> 19:10 [SPEAKER_01]: and the Wesley Brothers, and those guys did it without, you know, a stick and the throwing people in jail kind of stuff.
19:10 --> 19:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So I think I think we can sometimes look at this idea of church discipline and if the church has had an hour to force its rules as an ease as a fix to the world today, and I don't see that as the fix that actually didn't even learn Luther, I don't think that was what he was doing.
19:26 --> 19:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I, so this is a little off topic, but and we talk about this from time to time.
19:30 --> 19:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you think puritanism would have been able to take root and establish what it was able to establish and then time that it was able to establish it without that structure, though, without that man?
19:43 --> 19:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That's a good question.
19:45 --> 19:47 [SPEAKER_01]: That is a good question, and the answer to that is I'm not sure.
19:48 --> 19:48 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
19:49 --> 19:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that they could have
19:51 --> 20:09 [SPEAKER_01]: built up New England as quickly and as good as they did and they did a lot of really we get I mean we look through the lens of New England so often was the scarlet letter or something like that hanging over a saline with trust and we miss so many good things that they did actually do that we should all be pretty grateful for but I also
20:10 --> 20:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know that it was it because of their ability to put you in jail if you did the wrong thing or Was it the fact that it just really loved God and we're very serious about it if you took that away If you took away their ability to put you in jail could these people have been just a serious and just as on fire for God
20:28 --> 20:42 [SPEAKER_01]: and I think the answer is I think probably because when the great awakening happens we see the same kind of thing where people would get really on fire for God and start sending missionaries to the natives and all these kinds of things and they aren't putting people in jail nearly as much.
20:42 --> 20:49 [SPEAKER_01]: They still did but not as much as their appearance and forefathers and it was okay in fact if it might have even been bigger than some of the work that the peer attention did.
20:50 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_01]: at least in terms of spreading the gospel to more people.
20:52 --> 21:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we see the Great Awakening hitting, you know, the islands of the Caribbean, and we see the Great Awakening going to the natives out in Canada, like it spread really hugely, but it did it without the stick.
21:03 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: And so I go, I don't know.
21:18 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_00]: There's nowhere to send people to, like you can't send people off into the woods to get molded by bears.
21:23 --> 21:28 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that is reality that you have to function in it and cooperate in.
21:28 --> 21:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And it is inherently a religious based existence, like you're there.
21:35 --> 21:37 [SPEAKER_01]: We do have a real taste test case.
21:37 --> 21:56 [SPEAKER_01]: We can kind of run it against Jamestown in Virginia where they weren't doing it the Puritan way and you know what from all accounts The New England Puritan world was a lot more Christian than what I can tell of Jamestown in Virginia So you're probably correct that those laws and those rules did help initially at least creating a more Christian
21:57 --> 21:59 [SPEAKER_01]: country in the north area where they were doing that there.
22:00 --> 22:11 [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, then it again, he's still, it's still hard to test them though because the guys who went to Jamestown went to Jamestown to make money, the people who went to New England went to New England to worship God and that you're not starting with the same group of people.
22:11 --> 22:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not, is it the rules that didn't or wasn't again the people?
22:14 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's
22:15 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_00]: It's an easy game account even in James Town.
22:19 --> 22:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't have a list of the rules in front of me, but I had to get jailed for some pretty things that we would find silly now.
22:25 --> 22:30 [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like they were probably a lot more strict than you're probably correct.
22:30 --> 22:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You're probably correct.
22:31 --> 22:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And look, if I was building a utopian Christian kingdom, would I expect or a Christian land, you know, if we found a new North America, like we found a new island, nobody claimed it, and we could just go send Christians to live there and create a pretty cool spot.
22:45 --> 22:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Would we probably have some Christian rules on the table in the answer as we probably would have some, right?
22:50 --> 22:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I would imagine some of our ideas would get in there.
22:53 --> 22:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Would I enforce people to go to church, you know, what I, as the Puritans did, keep you from doing archery on Sunday?
22:59 --> 23:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't.
23:00 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think I would though, I don't know, but then I...
23:04 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I do feel like, I feel mixed on this because on the flips, okay, here's a good example.
23:08 --> 23:12 [SPEAKER_01]: To everyone today, everyone today says the prohibition was a giant mass of failure, right?
23:12 --> 23:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Said the banning of selling alcohol, everyone says it doesn't work.
23:16 --> 23:19 [SPEAKER_01]: But the roaring 20s happened in the middle of prohibition.
23:19 --> 23:28 [SPEAKER_01]: It was one of the most successful, most productive time period in human history, part at least in America and you're in partially because nobody could drink alcohol.
23:28 --> 23:31 [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, there were people, there were moonshiner's in the Appalachia.
23:32 --> 23:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Appalachia that were that were making it and there were some great gas fees and really rich areas The luxurious wealthy people did have access to alcohol, but the great middle really struggled to get it and then they went on to be more productive than they've ever been So what is our definition of the prohibition being a failure, right?
23:48 --> 23:54 [SPEAKER_01]: We're gonna if it's in terms of successful productive people the prohibition was a wonderful success
23:54 --> 23:59 [SPEAKER_01]: In terms of, you know, most people, though, would say the prohibition was a failure and would never dream of bringing it back.
23:59 --> 24:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So if we were creating this new island, would we probably have it out the whole, or restrict it back to the dry sun days?
24:06 --> 24:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a complicated one, right?
24:08 --> 24:09 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a complicated one.
24:09 --> 24:10 [SPEAKER_01]: I struggle.
24:10 --> 24:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I am one of the people who, I will tell you this.
24:13 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I love church history.
24:15 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_01]: I enjoy government and politics.
24:16 --> 24:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I think all of that stuff is interesting.
24:18 --> 24:21 [SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of like, what my perfect theory to run the world would be?
24:21 --> 24:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do.
24:22 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
24:23 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That's tough.
24:25 --> 24:39 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think we are on the same page in the sense of modern day churches do not practice churches blend in the way that the biblical model is laid out for us and that that is something that is not great.
24:40 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And I would say I do think that even though I don't agree that I would I like John Calon I like what they didn't Geneva.
24:47 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I think they did great things and fight in their in their time period of pushing back against the Catholic Church I don't know how they could have done it any other way they had to be firm with that said though I don't know that I see the biblical model being you know put people in jail and that kind of stuff But no, I don't think anyone's arguing for that though
25:03 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I know you're not.
25:03 --> 25:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I was gonna say, but I also don't see the biblical model being what it is today, which is not doing really much of anything.
25:09 --> 25:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I feel like we've gone as far to the other side of that as we can, and we need to turn the ship around and get back towards
25:17 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_01]: a place where you do this, where church discipline is seen.
25:21 --> 25:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I try to think, you know, honestly, one of the, probably best examples I can think of in church history is John of the networks.
25:27 --> 25:35 [SPEAKER_01]: The exception of it didn't work, but when he had those kids that he caught looking at book, a human anatomy books, but they were being inappropriate with them.
25:35 --> 25:40 [SPEAKER_01]: They were being vulgar and he basically was like, hey, he told the parents like, these kids need to apologize.
25:41 --> 25:42 [SPEAKER_01]: It was inappropriate and they said, no, they don't.
25:42 --> 25:45 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't want them to apologize, give them community anyway.
25:45 --> 25:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, I don't want to give them communion until they apologize.
25:48 --> 25:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I actually feel like to the best of his ability.
25:51 --> 25:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like Jonathan Edwards did try to do church discipline properly.
25:55 --> 25:57 [SPEAKER_01]: He told them they needed to say sorry.
25:57 --> 25:59 [SPEAKER_01]: He told them what they did was wrong.
25:59 --> 26:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But he also was kind of like if you do that, we will do it.
26:02 --> 26:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And when they didn't, he said, well, I don't want to give you communion because you're right now living in sin because you want to apologize for your sin.
26:08 --> 26:13 [SPEAKER_01]: I feel like even though that blew up in his face and let him to be kicked out of his church.
26:15 --> 26:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I think he tried to do the right thing there and I think that's kind of what you're supposed to do.
26:19 --> 26:19 [SPEAKER_01]: You don't.
26:20 --> 26:21 [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't need to inside the church.
26:21 --> 26:25 [SPEAKER_01]: You're taking care of this issue and you're saying because you're not showing the fruit of God.
26:25 --> 26:26 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not showing the fruit of repentance.
26:26 --> 26:27 [SPEAKER_01]: You're not listening.
26:28 --> 26:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Even if you didn't think it was a sin, your elder is telling you it is.
26:31 --> 26:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Like at least consider it as one.
26:33 --> 26:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That's probably important.
26:34 --> 26:36 [SPEAKER_01]: But it was, I think, probably a sin too.
26:37 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: and you're not going to give them comedian because you're saying I don't see you as a Christian right now.
26:41 --> 26:43 [SPEAKER_01]: That to me looks like he did the right things again.
26:43 --> 26:44 [SPEAKER_01]: It didn't work out for him.
26:45 --> 26:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But I actually would say that's a pretty good example.
26:46 --> 26:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I think of Trisha's plan probably going the right way.
26:49 --> 27:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so would you say that the decline of implementation of church discipline is primarily due to the population retention, like people, people wanting more people in the church, like what, why do not, why is it that we don't practice church?
27:08 --> 27:15 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to say I think it's because because one of the more people in the church sounds very crass, it sounds like look, you're just trying to keep your dollars in your hand.
27:15 --> 27:17 [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think the average pastor is doing it.
27:17 --> 27:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I hope.
27:19 --> 27:21 [SPEAKER_01]: and assume the best in the average pastor.
27:21 --> 27:22 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure that's not what it is.
27:22 --> 27:26 [SPEAKER_01]: What I think it might more just be is just, we're trying to bring people to Christ.
27:26 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's the secret mentality.
27:28 --> 27:29 [SPEAKER_01]: They call it what is that called secret sense in a mentality.
27:30 --> 27:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to bring people to Christ.
27:31 --> 27:33 [SPEAKER_01]: We're trying to make church comfortable for them.
27:34 --> 27:35 [SPEAKER_01]: We're doing everything we can to get them in the door.
27:35 --> 27:36 [SPEAKER_01]: So they hear the gospel.
27:36 --> 27:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe, I've even kind of heard it said this way.
27:39 --> 27:41 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I believe the gospel changes lives.
27:41 --> 27:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think as they sit in the church as the Holy Spirit works on them, they will change over time.
27:47 --> 27:56 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm not going to interrupt that process of God working by trying to slap my own, you know, my own timing on an issue kind of thing.
27:56 --> 27:59 [SPEAKER_01]: And so this church discipline is for extreme cases.
27:59 --> 28:04 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're going to, you know, if the, if the wife comes to us and she's being beaten by her husband, that's when church discipline is going to get involved.
28:04 --> 28:07 [SPEAKER_01]: But for the average congregate, it shouldn't come up.
28:07 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of the vibe I get on it.
28:09 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_00]: But that your secret mentality that you're describing is not new.
28:14 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's been around for pastors forever.
28:18 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So what's your difference between 300 years ago and now?
28:22 --> 28:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I think the difference, again, is that convenient?
28:24 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_01]: So 300 years ago, if you only have one or two churches in town, you know, like, they only got only a couple places to go.
28:31 --> 28:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So you can still church discipline them and it mattered more.
28:34 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that today, it doesn't have.
28:36 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_01]: There's not the, I mean, we are a different people.
28:39 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And morality is, I'm not trying to be old.
28:42 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: What is that?
28:42 --> 28:43 [SPEAKER_01]: What do you say?
28:43 --> 28:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm full of five of the segmentalty.
28:45 --> 28:59 [SPEAKER_00]: What did the amplify if you're if you're the pastor of a church and you got 30 congregants and the next church is, you know, three hours away by horseback, you're really going to want to know, no, no, no, no.
29:00 --> 29:19 [SPEAKER_01]: you know that these 30 families are in it for the long haul because they can't really go anywhere because they're still gonna go to church almost every but like even the non-believers would go to church back in those days because it was something to do there was not that much going on and most of them were still gonna hit we're still gonna hit the pews i i they were they were famous for
29:20 --> 29:37 [SPEAKER_01]: uh... whalers who would go out and you know ship kill whales but they couldn't miss one church service every couple years when they were in town because it was just what you did even though none of them are christian it was just something like it was such a part of the fabric of society that why the non-whalers were there too
29:37 --> 29:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Why is the pastor of that church less susceptible to the secret mentality than modern day?
29:43 --> 29:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I think because in that time period, going after somebody and saying, hey, our discipline matters.
29:50 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we feel like what our effort is going to exist in matter.
29:54 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_01]: And if I'm disciplining them, they may get kicked out of this church.
29:57 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_01]: There is no warehouse for them to go.
29:59 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: they're going to, they're going to take this more seriously because church is one doesn't automatically.
30:03 --> 30:04 [SPEAKER_01]: You need to kick in somebody out.
30:05 --> 30:07 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a whole, you know, one, two, three, four steps to it.
30:07 --> 30:09 [SPEAKER_01]: Many times I think, and maybe it's probably the reason we don't see it.
30:10 --> 30:16 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe there are churches doing it more, but they're just never getting past phase one and two, and that's why we don't see phase four as often where they get discipline out of the church.
30:19 --> 30:23 [SPEAKER_01]: That was a bigger deal, if it's the only church in town to get discipline out of it, that really carried weight.
30:23 --> 30:32 [SPEAKER_01]: And so you felt more like, I think you're going through this process, what haven't effect on the people, because they knew the elders, they knew the pastor, everyone knew each other, everyone did business.
30:33 --> 30:37 [SPEAKER_01]: If they come after you, that's kind of a really big deal, and it could really have a big impact on you.
30:38 --> 30:39 [SPEAKER_01]: Whereas...
30:39 --> 30:41 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you go to your, you're living in the big city.
30:41 --> 30:43 [SPEAKER_01]: There's a thousand churches around you.
30:43 --> 30:49 [SPEAKER_01]: If you even start the process of church discipline, that person might just drop out and they never see him again anyway, because they didn't like it.
30:49 --> 30:50 [SPEAKER_01]: You made them uncomfortable.
30:50 --> 30:54 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think that that also makes a pastor feel like, well, what's the point?
30:54 --> 30:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, why am I going to go through all of this?
30:56 --> 30:59 [SPEAKER_01]: If I know that it's just going to, they're just going to keep doing it somewhere else.
30:59 --> 31:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe at least under my house, my preaching, my impact, them might, my small group might impact them.
31:04 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_01]: My Bible study might impact them.
31:10 --> 31:33 [SPEAKER_01]: And what would you say to that like what is because it's not a bad argument like it's not an argument No, I mean you look somebody can say look the Bible says and I agree with you But can you also admit that this is a very pragmatic argument They're making and they have a good point too if they go to a church with worse Bible teaching Yeah, that might be on them, but maybe another year of your preaching could have been the one I Can see the point I guess of what I would say is
31:35 --> 31:38 [SPEAKER_01]: As a pastor, we've got as much as we can.
31:38 --> 31:39 [SPEAKER_01]: You gotta be connected to your people.
31:39 --> 31:48 [SPEAKER_01]: And if there is a moment where church discipline does need to be enacted, you let's use the example of you see the people, girlfriend boyfriend, they're living together, they're not married.
31:48 --> 32:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Where you can, where it is reasonable, attempt with your elders and support to kind of start doing those interferences and share Christ with them, but also point them to discipline, because if
32:00 --> 32:08 [SPEAKER_01]: If it was just the preaching and just the Holy Spirit, if that's all that was needed, then why did God leave this church discipline process for us in Matthew 18?
32:08 --> 32:12 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did he leave this model of go and fix this?
32:12 --> 32:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did Paul talk about it?
32:14 --> 32:16 [SPEAKER_01]: in 1st Corinthians 6 and 2nd Corinthians.
32:16 --> 32:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Why did he bring this up if it wasn't something that wasn't needed?
32:19 --> 32:25 [SPEAKER_01]: If you only just need to preach the gospel and everyone's changed and we never needed, then there wouldn't have been we wouldn't have been left in the 1st place.
32:25 --> 32:33 [SPEAKER_01]: It must be a tool that the pastor needs to use sometimes and even though it's going to be uncomfortable and even though you might look at it and go, maybe it won't make a difference, but maybe it will.
32:34 --> 32:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe the Holy Spirit will honor what you're doing and will use that method to change their life.
32:39 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_01]: But you can't know if you're not trying.
32:41 --> 32:44 [SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't mean go into church on Sunday and look around and go, okay, who am I gonna discipline?
32:44 --> 32:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're obviously that's not right, but being aware of your people, know being a shepherd enough to your flock that you know, or as a congregant, are you bringing stuff to your path?
32:53 --> 32:56 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mean gossip, but I mean, are you informing your path?
32:56 --> 32:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Does your pastor even know what's going on with this people?
32:59 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_01]: Have you informed them of things that might help in that area?
33:01 --> 33:02 [SPEAKER_01]: Again, not being gossip,
33:05 --> 33:06 [SPEAKER_01]: you know, help people where they're at.
33:07 --> 33:07 [SPEAKER_01]: It takes a lot.
33:07 --> 33:08 [SPEAKER_01]: It's messy.
33:08 --> 33:15 [SPEAKER_01]: And I can see how this, I can see how many, many times the amount of drama caused by this could have been not worth the effort for many pastors.
33:15 --> 33:16 [SPEAKER_01]: And that might have been it too.
33:16 --> 33:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Just look, we throw in the towel on it because it just kept making things worse.
33:19 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Families blew up people's feelings where it looked like gossip.
33:22 --> 33:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I could see it.
33:24 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_01]: But again, if God left it for us, there must be a purpose for it.
33:27 --> 33:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So there must be something to use it for.
33:29 --> 33:31 [SPEAKER_01]: You can't throw people in jail like John Calvin.
33:32 --> 33:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Anymore, but but that doesn't mean that it has no purpose and that doesn't mean that it's something we should just skip over Well, I'm sure our listeners have Thoughts Please write it with Revive let us know that's at chmail.com
33:50 --> 34:15 [SPEAKER_01]: uh yeah let us know what you think where where did we get it wrong where do you think we could do better on this um and where did what what church discipline story from church history or from you know did we miss uh we'd we'd loved to hear it um yeah it's a tough one it's a tough one because I I think I mean I can't think of that many I don't have that many examples to choose for Angel you you mentioned that you went to a small church and you've seen it before it did you ever see it happen at your church either
34:16 --> 34:21 [SPEAKER_00]: I saw people step down or, you know, make repentance.
34:21 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, as you mentioned, sometimes you don't know what's going on behind the scenes.
34:26 --> 34:37 [SPEAKER_00]: So probably, I do feel like, you know, like the, these are probably situations where people have, and that's the beauty of that kind of first layer of church discipline is like, if you are,
34:38 --> 34:44 [SPEAKER_00]: aware of the people around you and like care about the people around you genuinely and have relations with the people around you.
34:45 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Those natural conversations and biblical advice comes naturally.
34:53 --> 35:00 [SPEAKER_00]: And so you're able to, I don't know if I say combat's not the right word, but address, address, sin,
35:02 --> 35:25 [SPEAKER_00]: on a one-on-one context before things escalate and so I do think that's maybe a better argument for the small church in the sense of like you genuinely need to be aware of what's going on in the lives of the people in the church and the people around you and like to genuinely care about them and be friends with them because that's how you are able to recognize that and and be an effective
35:28 --> 35:32 [SPEAKER_00]: We're proof of the baby, we're beaker of this and, you know, in a loving way.
35:33 --> 35:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So, it's hard to say, when does church discipline become church discipline and not a caring friend?
35:40 --> 35:45 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, like there's some point that there's a line in there somewhere, but it's hard to define sometimes.
35:45 --> 35:47 [SPEAKER_01]: It's a really, you made a good point though.
35:47 --> 35:53 [SPEAKER_01]: The pastor carrying the small, I'm not saying the big churches are incentive and I clearly think that, but I do think that that you've got a,
35:54 --> 35:58 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, back in the day it was very the church would go out to lunch.
35:58 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, they would have the whole picnic together and that environment.
36:01 --> 36:02 [SPEAKER_01]: They knew each other.
36:02 --> 36:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And I do wonder in question, whether as people just kind of clock in and clock out, they go to the nine o'clock service or out before the 10 o'clock start, you know, when we move into this.
36:12 --> 36:15 [SPEAKER_01]: very much be at church just for it be theirs.
36:15 --> 36:23 [SPEAKER_01]: I know many loving great Christians who they get in that door at 11 at you know and they are out that door at 12 and they are not spending any time extra time.
36:23 --> 36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: How is it pastor to church discipline?
36:25 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_01]: Because how is a pastor to even know that?
36:27 --> 36:28 [SPEAKER_01]: So you know what?
36:28 --> 36:29 [SPEAKER_01]: We put some of it on the pastor.
36:29 --> 36:31 [SPEAKER_01]: They need to know their congregants.
36:31 --> 36:32 [SPEAKER_01]: They need to step up and use that tool.
36:33 --> 36:37 [SPEAKER_01]: But some of it's on you the congregate to you the person who's sitting in the pew as well.
36:37 --> 36:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And us I mean I'm also sitting so
36:41 --> 36:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you spend time could any could anyone know you well enough to know if you needed it?
36:46 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have that relationship with people or are you just going to church in and out like that?
36:50 --> 36:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's a big piece of it.
36:52 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_01]: All right, send an email or via thoughts at gmail.com.
36:55 --> 36:57 [SPEAKER_01]: Let us know where we got it right and wrong.
36:57 --> 37:01 [SPEAKER_01]: And if you enjoyed this conversation, if you think it's an important one, like, hey, why don't we talk more about this as a church?
37:01 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we would love for you to share it and tell others so that they can listen to it.
37:06 --> 37:08 [SPEAKER_01]: This is Troy and Joel and you're listening to Revive Ons.