Elise joins Troy for a special Revived Conversation on how NOT to teach church history. We give problems with how people are learning it today and why it is so important to start teaching it the right way.
Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands
Privacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
[00:00:00] The legends are true! Overwhelming power!
[00:00:02] Soss of casting! Yes!
[00:00:04] The most legendary sauce has arrived has McDonald's transforms into the anime world of
[00:00:10] Wicked Donalds. The greatest flavors unite in all new, savory, chilly Wicked Donalds sauce to make
[00:00:16] your ten-piece Wicked Nuggets, Fryce and Sprite ultra-powerful. Unlock manga comics with every meal
[00:00:21] and sit down for a new anime short every week only at Wicked Donalds!
[00:00:26] I participate in McDonald's for limited time while supplies last.
[00:00:30] Revived Thoughts is a production of Revived Studios.
[00:00:48] This is Troy and Elise and you are listening to a Revived Thoughts and Martyrs and Missionaries
[00:00:54] crossover episode where we are going to be doing a what we sometimes call Revived Thoughts,
[00:00:58] Revived Conversation. We're going to have a having a discussion about how I think the only way to
[00:01:04] really say is how not to teach church history but really the goal is we have both noticed
[00:01:10] through some different things, some problems in teaching church history and I think the best way to
[00:01:14] maybe kind of open this up is to use a very recent example.
[00:01:20] I'm taking these classes to finish up one of my degree.
[00:01:26] I'm taking this church history class and there's a specific book where we're supposed to do
[00:01:32] a book report on and it's called Turning Points by Mark Ainole and he's kind of famous in the church history,
[00:01:38] Christian history kind of circuit. Yeah when I posted and recently on Twitter
[00:01:44] and I asked our followers do you know this book and what do you know about it?
[00:01:48] And so we have several commenters go ahead and read that book in my church history class.
[00:01:52] I love that book and if you look at this book on Amazon, it's very highly rated out of.
[00:01:56] I think four to 500 reviews it's got a 4.8. So you would think then that this is going to be a book that
[00:02:02] would really blow your socks off for church history.
[00:02:04] And it does not unless you are maybe a Catholic because it's very, I actually
[00:02:10] know, while I was reading it, I was like is this guy a Catholic?
[00:02:14] I was just blown away because he was really praising everything that the Catholic church did.
[00:02:22] And then actually negatizing is that a word? I don't know but he was being very negative about
[00:02:28] the Protestant movement, the Reformation. He didn't even mention the great awakening.
[00:02:32] He didn't mention Jonathan Edwards. He skipped over the entire Protestant
[00:02:36] movement and it was just...
[00:02:38] And this is a book called Turning Points. The idea is the big moments in church history.
[00:02:42] Yes. So it's hard to imagine discussing the big movements of church history but skipping over
[00:02:48] the great awakening and the great century of missions especially because you mentioned some other
[00:02:54] movements like the pietis that he definitely allotted a lot of time to.
[00:02:58] And the counter-reformation as well.
[00:03:02] And so this is... and the reason I think this is a good example to open with
[00:03:06] is because right now church history is not being taught correctly.
[00:03:11] I just think you're going to say that across the board in many places
[00:03:14] church history is not being taught correctly. This book is one example
[00:03:18] just kind of the recent... and the most recent example that we ran into where
[00:03:22] we thought yet again here we see a person is sign up for church history class.
[00:03:26] I think the truth is though at least if you didn't run a church history podcast
[00:03:30] if this wasn't a world you were living in, would you have thought that this was a really good
[00:03:34] study on church history?
[00:03:36] It's possible. I think I probably would. I mean you write very authoritatively.
[00:03:40] Yeah and I think that's one of the big problems is that so often people are
[00:03:44] being given this almost completely wrong version of church history.
[00:03:48] They're being told this is church history and then that's all they have.
[00:03:52] I have an example of myself. I was at seminary a couple years back.
[00:03:55] I was also in a church history class but I was also running these church history
[00:03:59] podcasts on the side and I was very excited for this class.
[00:04:03] It was like it was the last class I had to take actually in the school.
[00:04:07] I said the best and easiest class for last and I couldn't help but notice that my
[00:04:11] professor was always putting down great people.
[00:04:15] He was putting down Charles Spurgeon, he was putting down Jonathan Edwards,
[00:04:19] he was really digging into the flaws of Martin Luther or John Calvin
[00:04:23] and I want you to know I don't think that's wrong.
[00:04:27] You can't teach the bad sides but he was glossing over anything good they added.
[00:04:31] He was completely focused on the negative and almost completely
[00:04:35] underwhelmed by anything positive that they did if they were good people
[00:04:39] but if they were people that would be considered negative.
[00:04:43] For example, Voltaire who is an atheist philosopher caused
[00:04:47] undue harm in France. He had an hour of all the positive things
[00:04:51] and he was a little bit on the negative. It was kind of like a slide wink.
[00:04:55] Like the Avaltaire wasn't an atheist philosopher but look at how smart he was.
[00:04:59] I couldn't believe it. I didn't go to a
[00:05:01] a Theologically liberal seminar. I went to a place that many considered
[00:05:05] to be very conservative theologically and theologically it probably is
[00:05:09] but yet this history professor was ripping
[00:05:11] church history up and down. I'll never forget that the very last class
[00:05:15] three hours he just spent negatively attacking
[00:05:19] church today with nothing positive to say. I thought to myself
[00:05:23] if I got a seminary education here and I didn't and church history wasn't a strong
[00:05:27] suit of mine, I would think that this was a correct course on church history
[00:05:31] and I would come out of this class not knowing church history hardly at all.
[00:05:35] In fact, I would have a very negative. Just like this book that you had to read
[00:05:39] a list, I would have a very negative impression of church history and I think that
[00:05:43] this really explains one of the major problems we have today which is a lot of people do
[00:05:47] negative impression of church history. We say the word church history people's eyes almost
[00:05:51] immediately gloss over. I think there's actually it's a kind of a two-fold
[00:05:55] issue because you have this very negative way of interpreting church history
[00:05:59] and then the stories of church history and then you also have
[00:06:03] this over emphasis on the councils and the early
[00:06:07] like the very early theological debates. Obviously those are important, very important.
[00:06:11] I'm not minimizing that but when you're doing a church history course
[00:06:15] you should be covering the history, not the theology of
[00:06:19] the early church. Yeah that is another big problem. I think it stems
[00:06:23] just simply, look I gotta be honest if this is totally speculation
[00:06:27] but when I'm in seminary and my Bible college experience is like look at Elise's
[00:06:31] experience and I just can't help but notice
[00:06:33] is it that the professors teaching church history really want to be theology professors
[00:06:37] but they end up in the church history department
[00:06:39] so they major on theology. I mean I don't know that's the vibe I get
[00:06:43] because they don't seem that interested in the stories of the church
[00:06:47] they seem almost exclusively interested in the historical
[00:06:51] theology but that's not the best way to teach church history. No I'm not saying
[00:06:55] there's no historical theology or merit to it
[00:06:59] but that is the secondary level of what church history
[00:07:03] his church history is a great movement of God's people through 2000 years living out
[00:07:07] what God has called us to live out and when you get focused on
[00:07:11] the church history it's great to distract about the theology that might appeal to the
[00:07:15] theologian people that are in your audience but everyone else is getting
[00:07:17] lost I'm sorry but the average person is not that interested
[00:07:21] in a lot of these councils. It's not to say it's not important but I think what has
[00:07:25] happened is too often on our church history courses
[00:07:27] church history is submissive to the theology department that you're only using
[00:07:31] church history to build
[00:07:33] improve your theological cases not to actually study
[00:07:37] the church history and learn from it itself you can learn theology
[00:07:41] from studying church history but church history is not a tool
[00:07:45] to teach your specific theological branch and denomination
[00:07:49] it is in itself its own study. I would agree with that
[00:07:53] because I think you can obviously teach church history and church history has many
[00:07:57] different people that were in it I mean
[00:07:59] if for the first up until the 151517 the church
[00:08:03] was we would consider it to be Catholic or at least that's kind of the idea is
[00:08:05] like everybody before 1517 would consider themselves to be Catholic
[00:08:09] now that's the difference what does that mean exactly does it actually mean
[00:08:13] the Western Catholic church was united that's another one of these
[00:08:17] myths is like the Catholic church was united until 1517
[00:08:21] which is completely false and this is actually mentioned in this book and I'm going to
[00:08:25] quote a little bit here he says and he's talking about the Protestant
[00:08:29] Reformation and he's kind of slammed on it the whole way through
[00:08:31] and he says the rise of Protestantism also symbolizes the end
[00:08:35] of the unified Western church and opening for replacing
[00:08:39] loyalty to the universal church with loyalty to nations
[00:08:43] and a stimulus to forms of thought rejecting the guidance of any church
[00:08:47] and that is something you will hear Catholics say it's one of their big
[00:08:51] points against Protestantism as they're like you guys are splintered into so many movements
[00:08:55] but yet the idea that the Catholic church is united
[00:08:59] completely false and it's a real threat too because
[00:09:03] you may be going okay well there's a bad book or some of the church history courses have been taught
[00:09:07] well but we meet a lot of Protestants who convert
[00:09:11] to Catholicism later in life and they will almost always say
[00:09:15] I without a doubt you can predict it to a T.I. promise you one of they will at some point say
[00:09:19] to study church history is to cease being Protestant
[00:09:23] it's a quote from a man named John Henry Newman and the 1800s
[00:09:27] quote from history that might be on my top condenders list because it's so obnoxious
[00:09:31] absolutely not I've been running church history podcast for five years at least
[00:09:35] is right here for three or four years we are not becoming Catholic anytime
[00:09:39] soon at all ever since an editorial party yeah no we're not doing that
[00:09:43] because Catholicism if at the more you teach church history I feel like in my experience
[00:09:47] the further removed from Catholicism I have certainly become
[00:09:51] but the problem is when we as the church don't teach it correctly
[00:09:55] or as many churches don't even teach it at all
[00:09:59] you leave this wide open door for Catholicism or any other group
[00:10:03] Mormons any other group to now create a new history people
[00:10:07] need history there's a reason why for a long time
[00:10:11] I believe it was the communist who used to say if you don't know where you come from
[00:10:15] you don't know where you're going one of the first departments that when
[00:10:19] communists are progressives begin to infect an institution one of the first places they go especially if it's
[00:10:23] a seminary they don't go for the theological departments
[00:10:27] they don't start there they start in the history departments
[00:10:31] because people are not watching them as carefully and they know that if they can change your
[00:10:35] story of how you got to be where you are they can change where you're going
[00:10:39] anytime communists or Maoist took over a country they would immediately replace
[00:10:43] all the old history with new stories that emulate
[00:10:47] the models they want you to emulate there's a reason that's happening around
[00:10:51] many of the western countries it's not an accident it's intentional
[00:10:55] rewriting history changes things and let's be honest the average
[00:10:59] Christian in the pew today if they were to have the history of the church rewritten
[00:11:03] and handed to them most of them wouldn't even know
[00:11:07] if you suddenly start saying these things
[00:11:09] they wouldn't even have a clue one of the big problems with teaching church history
[00:11:12] today is that the church has just relegated that to someone else's job
[00:11:15] they're either handing it to secular universities they don't know it they're not even trying
[00:11:19] the average church has zero church history week to week
[00:11:23] and where are you expecting your parishioners your people to learn it from
[00:11:27] you're not expecting them to learn it at all
[00:11:29] and you think that's going to be okay
[00:11:31] it's not though they need to know the story of the church
[00:11:35] and where they came from and if they don't get that from you
[00:11:39] they will start to learn it from someone else and that someone else very likely will have an agenda
[00:11:43] to change the shape and direction and the course of the church we have
[00:11:47] doing it so the first problem that we can start saying with how not to teach church history is by not teaching it
[00:11:51] and many many churches I think are currently guilty of this
[00:11:55] where they just have completely not absorbed or even attempted
[00:11:59] to teach church history even at all
[00:12:01] agreed I think that as I've done martyrs and missionaries
[00:12:05] I've always liked history obviously you don't sort of podcast if you don't
[00:12:09] write about history
[00:12:11] but I think that one of the things that actually encouraged me to start
[00:12:15] doing martyrs and missionaries is not the theology
[00:12:19] not the different historical events
[00:12:23] sometimes that's really interesting these different missionaries who go into these different
[00:12:27] typing rebellion and things like that
[00:12:29] obviously makes a really good story
[00:12:31] but it's actually the personal stories of how these people lived out
[00:12:35] their Christian faith
[00:12:37] and the impact that they had on society
[00:12:41] and it does happen in a vacuum and it's actually one of the things that we
[00:12:45] don't emphasize when we're covering history is all the things that are happening around you at the same time
[00:12:51] so we like to kind of pluck somebody from a timeline and be like this is everything they did
[00:12:55] kind of
[00:12:57] and then we just kind of
[00:12:59] we don't look around to see
[00:13:01] like oh okay so this was
[00:13:03] happening at this point in time and this was happening and this impacted this person
[00:13:07] and that's actually one of the most cool stories about history and then you have oh this person do this
[00:13:09] about history and then you have oh this person do this person and so they were affected by this person
[00:13:13] and when you don't
[00:13:15] teach the stories of church history and you just focus on the theologies or
[00:13:19] um or you're trying to prove a narrative you are
[00:13:23] you're doing a huge disservice
[00:13:25] and I think that's actually one of the things when you're teaching a history course
[00:13:29] um is you want your students to feel engaged
[00:13:33] you want them to be okay this is
[00:13:35] the story of this person this is why it matters not
[00:13:39] well you know this was a heresy that was happening about this time which can be important
[00:13:43] but sometimes we focus on that and we go this person lived from this date to this date
[00:13:47] and then their impact was this but we don't actually get to know that person
[00:13:51] and I think that is something that's missing from a lot of um these
[00:13:55] these different courses and like Choi said if you don't know anything
[00:13:59] about history you can be led wherever they want you to go
[00:14:03] huge problem yeah I assume that would be the next thing I think I was going to say so
[00:14:07] one of the ways to not teach church history is to just not teach it
[00:14:09] another way to not teach church history is like a Lisa with just a slideshow
[00:14:13] with different you know I'm picturing like a professor but you could do this at church
[00:14:17] you could do this in your after-sunday school church classes
[00:14:19] where you just have a face of like an old you know guy
[00:14:23] and then you just put he lived to this and this day he was important
[00:14:25] and working through the atonement
[00:14:27] and he wrote this book and a lot of people liked it
[00:14:29] and that's it and like that my son ridiculous but
[00:14:33] that is so often people's experiences with church history
[00:14:37] or history in general or history in general you know I always make this kind of joke the history is not just
[00:14:41] this group of people sold purple cloth from these years to this years but like so many
[00:14:45] so many people when they think of church they think of history class
[00:14:49] they think of sixth grade when their teacher was going on they were trying to stay awake
[00:14:53] and how they were like in these people so traded seashells for copper
[00:14:57] yes it's true that may as fascinating but it's not history class
[00:15:01] and if that's your impression of history you're dying and you don't want to
[00:15:05] that's one of the big problems we have teaching church history is one of the big problems our podcasts have
[00:15:09] is we are up against the word history itself our the world has been so programmed
[00:15:14] to be anti-history that they imagine their old social studies coach
[00:15:19] in their public school background is going on and on and on between lacrosse practices
[00:15:24] and just waiting for the class to end miserably they're so ingrained into that world view of that's what history is
[00:15:30] that you're up against it and you have to make it fresh
[00:15:34] and exciting and interesting to them if you wouldn't do you know
[00:15:38] an hour long lecture and church on Sunday
[00:15:42] and you would add anecdotes and you would add stories
[00:15:44] and you would make it applicable you need to do that a little bit of a church history too
[00:15:48] people are not going to just understand how this
[00:15:51] mountainous controversy in the 200s immediately applies to them today you have to help them do that
[00:15:56] you have to help them see how the first crusade
[00:16:00] although very confusing and interesting applies to them today
[00:16:03] you need to make it something that they want to click on
[00:16:06] and want to listen to or want to go talk to you about
[00:16:08] and you need to make these stories real
[00:16:10] at least said how studying these stories can be encouraging to your faith
[00:16:14] John the Edward says there's two ways to encourage faith by teaching doctrine and precept
[00:16:18] teaching theology
[00:16:19] or by example
[00:16:21] and we always see Revive Thoughts of My Resumissionaries as word of the examples
[00:16:24] there are lots of people podcasting giving you theology
[00:16:26] but there's only a handful of people trying to give examples
[00:16:29] and yet week after week our inboxes are full of people saying
[00:16:33] thank you so much for making these stories
[00:16:34] thank you so much for doing what you're doing
[00:16:36] I have been looking for something like this
[00:16:38] and it was such a balm to my soul
[00:16:39] yet we can't do it alone like there need to be more churches
[00:16:43] more ministries more people getting these messages out
[00:16:47] and if you're a seminary you gotta teach it better
[00:16:49] if you're a church you need to start bringing this up in your church
[00:16:53] if you are just a regular guy share it with your family
[00:16:56] but get out there and be starting to introducing these things
[00:17:00] and the same way that I think 15 to 20 years ago
[00:17:02] a lot of churches realized hey we need to start teaching better theology
[00:17:06] like we need to go back in time
[00:17:08] you know I think it was about 20 years ago people started studying Puritans more
[00:17:11] they started studying a lot of the reform movements are having
[00:17:14] but I feel like the whole church in the west realized a lot of their theology is shallow
[00:17:19] we need to have that wake up call on our history
[00:17:22] because we are at that point now where we become shallow in it
[00:17:25] so and if we do teach it so often it's just a very shallow surface level
[00:17:30] a bunch of names without any real recognition
[00:17:33] this isn't just a problem in church history
[00:17:35] as someone who has some experience teaching history courses
[00:17:38] even at a high school level
[00:17:40] this is becoming a problem across the board everywhere
[00:17:42] where history has become so shallow to the average person
[00:17:45] they can't relate to it anymore
[00:17:47] and we've really got to start working on getting it deeper
[00:18:00] now there's another problem as well
[00:18:02] the dealing with history
[00:18:03] and that is what is called the new history movement
[00:18:06] wow and I think they kind of go together
[00:18:08] I think as history became shallow
[00:18:10] and people knew less and less there is now a new movement
[00:18:13] to basically reverse teach history
[00:18:16] where they teach you history the way they want you to see it
[00:18:19] this is your critical, you may be critical theory history
[00:18:22] critical race theory comes from critical theory which all comes from history itself actually
[00:18:27] but this is this new way of teaching history
[00:18:29] where the bad guys are actually the good guys
[00:18:31] and the good guys are actually the bad guys
[00:18:33] this is where if you've heard people basically living through today
[00:18:37] where they suddenly start seeing old presidents that everyone used to like
[00:18:41] are suddenly really, really evil and bad
[00:18:43] and people who were not so good through history
[00:18:46] were actually not so bad after all
[00:18:48] I know a textbook that is being used in high schools right now
[00:18:51] that says something to the effect of China was through
[00:18:55] was full of civil strife until 1948
[00:18:57] and that's when it became much more stable
[00:18:59] and if you hear that and you don't know
[00:19:01] that 1948 is the year the communist took over
[00:19:03] you might think oh good, China got some stability
[00:19:05] but of course if you know that's the year the communist took over
[00:19:08] you then realize that this book is saying
[00:19:10] China was full of strife until the communist took over
[00:19:13] and then everything stabilized
[00:19:14] yeah, that's one way to call the cultural revolution
[00:19:17] and the massacre of millions of people
[00:19:19] a stabilization I suppose is one way to say it
[00:19:22] but this is a real thing
[00:19:23] I can show you picture after picture of these textbook statements
[00:19:26] where they are rewriting and reconfiguring history
[00:19:30] to say something that it no longer says
[00:19:32] where they eliminate important parts of history
[00:19:35] like the Armenian genocide or the communist revolutions in the world
[00:19:39] and they start to paint down the evils of these other countries
[00:19:42] and this is happening in our history class
[00:19:45] as I mentioned that I had a professor that was doing this
[00:19:47] and Elisa's book that she had to read
[00:19:49] the turning points is doing this as well
[00:19:51] but this is happening all across
[00:19:53] where oh actually you know missionaries did a lot more harm
[00:19:57] when they entered those cultures than they actually did
[00:19:59] if you knew the real history
[00:20:00] you would know that they really heard a lot more.
[00:20:02] Yes, I will actually say that is a huge problem today
[00:20:06] where you'll see a lot of Christians talking about
[00:20:09] the harm of missions movement
[00:20:11] and you'll actually right now we're seeing a
[00:20:13] I wouldn't say an explosion because nothing's actually happening
[00:20:16] but it's all kind of people talking about how we need to be
[00:20:20] missionaries in our own backyard
[00:20:22] and these foreign mission movements
[00:20:24] we should not do those
[00:20:25] because we're damaging the culture of other countries
[00:20:29] and how damaging they were throughout history
[00:20:32] and how much harm they did
[00:20:34] and all of these things
[00:20:36] but you also don't see an explosion of
[00:20:38] backyard ministry either.
[00:20:41] It's easy to say go mission your missionary work is actually at home
[00:20:45] but also we're not going to do it at home a lot of times.
[00:20:47] Yes, but that stems from this idea
[00:20:49] that all cultures are sacred
[00:20:52] that culture is sacred
[00:20:53] and that Christianity somehow is harming these cultures
[00:20:56] and the thing is Christianity transcends culture
[00:21:00] and it transforms culture
[00:21:02] this is not to say that church in China
[00:21:04] should look identical to a church in the West
[00:21:06] but there are tenets of faith
[00:21:08] they should look the same
[00:21:10] in a lot of different areas
[00:21:12] and that's one of their biggest beef
[00:21:14] is that we don't want to bring our Western Christianity
[00:21:17] to these churches in Asia
[00:21:19] because that would harm them and danger them
[00:21:21] but what you're actually saying is
[00:21:23] I don't want to share the gospel with churches abroad
[00:21:26] because we don't think it's important.
[00:21:29] Another example I can think of is just rewriting the stories of history
[00:21:32] for example, the people themselves
[00:21:34] for example Hudson Taylor
[00:21:35] there were many commentarians out there
[00:21:37] the whole Hudson Taylor was a tough
[00:21:39] he was a mean guy working for him
[00:21:41] was like working for a tyrant he was tough
[00:21:43] well for starters his ministry field
[00:21:45] was extremely difficult
[00:21:47] you would have to be very tough to survive there
[00:21:50] I'm not denying that he might have had moments
[00:21:52] tough on people and expected high standards
[00:21:54] but on the other side of it too
[00:21:55] his people loved him
[00:21:57] Hudson Taylor was deeply, deeply
[00:21:59] beloved by his people
[00:22:00] so how do you square that away
[00:22:01] with saying at the same time he was very tough
[00:22:03] right?
[00:22:04] It must be some balance to it
[00:22:05] another example is George Mead
[00:22:07] oh did you have one too?
[00:22:08] Oh I did well I was going to say about Hudson Taylor
[00:22:10] actually in this book
[00:22:11] that I was reading
[00:22:12] the guy says that he was
[00:22:14] Hudson wasn't a good
[00:22:16] missions theorist
[00:22:17] which is complete garbage
[00:22:19] because of China's millions
[00:22:20] and the recruiting efforts that expanded into a North American branch
[00:22:23] and I believe it was a New Zealand or Australia branch
[00:22:25] plus there was Scandinavian countries
[00:22:27] so if he was a terrible missions theorist
[00:22:30] why was he so successful?
[00:22:31] That might actually be the perfect
[00:22:32] I didn't know that in the book
[00:22:33] I didn't read the book
[00:22:35] at least read the book
[00:22:36] but that might be the perfect example
[00:22:37] when I'm talking about
[00:22:38] Hudson Taylor wasn't a mission
[00:22:39] it wasn't a great mission theorist
[00:22:40] but here's some things he did
[00:22:41] Hudson Taylor
[00:22:42] completely revolutionized missions
[00:22:44] he is one of the most successful missionaries of all time
[00:22:47] and yet he wasn't a good enough mission theorist
[00:22:49] this gentleman writing the book
[00:22:50] apparently knows better how to do missions
[00:22:52] and Hudson Taylor
[00:22:53] and that's such a classic example
[00:22:55] of what they do
[00:22:56] they take a little nitpick
[00:22:58] they put a little chink in the armor
[00:22:59] they don't want to tell you these guys are all good
[00:23:01] another example I remember
[00:23:02] my professor using was Charles Spurgeon
[00:23:04] he was kind of a rich aristocratic preacher
[00:23:08] he wasn't a man of the people
[00:23:10] his church was filled with working class people
[00:23:13] he had an orphanage
[00:23:14] he ran the orphan sat in the first two rows
[00:23:17] and he basically was like
[00:23:18] I'd rather them be here than everyone else
[00:23:20] he was of course
[00:23:21] but his publication was read
[00:23:23] literally one of the most read document
[00:23:24] his sermons were one of the most read things
[00:23:26] throughout the entire world
[00:23:27] being bought by people
[00:23:28] all over the world
[00:23:29] they would sell newspapers
[00:23:31] with his clippings in them
[00:23:32] and they love them
[00:23:33] but somehow I'm supposed to believe
[00:23:34] that only aristocrats like him
[00:23:36] it's just
[00:23:37] there's the
[00:23:38] if you don't know history
[00:23:39] if you are not aware of this stuff
[00:23:41] if you're not pre-knowledge
[00:23:43] you're going to believe these little nitpicks
[00:23:45] you know imagine if
[00:23:47] think of your favorite
[00:23:48] may think of famous
[00:23:49] important Christians
[00:23:50] that are meaningful for today
[00:23:52] you know I think of
[00:23:53] I'm trying to use an example
[00:23:54] that I think a universally people would agree with
[00:23:56] I think most people would say
[00:23:57] Martin Lloyd Jones recently deceased
[00:23:59] he's a well-loved guy
[00:24:00] and imagine a hundred years from now
[00:24:02] I'm teaching about Martin Lloyd Jones
[00:24:04] somebody most people are familiar with
[00:24:05] and I say yeah Martin Lloyd Jones
[00:24:07] you know he didn't really connect with people
[00:24:09] but other than that
[00:24:10] he was a great minister
[00:24:11] and if you're hearing that today
[00:24:12] go well hey wait a second
[00:24:13] I've listened to his sermons
[00:24:15] I really enjoy that
[00:24:16] or maybe RC Sproul
[00:24:17] he could be a bit mean though
[00:24:19] people found him hard to work with
[00:24:20] but otherwise
[00:24:21] and you'd go wait a second
[00:24:22] that's not true
[00:24:23] you know that
[00:24:24] because you know these guys
[00:24:25] but the problem is
[00:24:26] people don't know these guys
[00:24:28] are the past
[00:24:29] and so you can get away with these little lines
[00:24:30] that attack
[00:24:31] and pull back on them
[00:24:32] and because people don't know
[00:24:34] they're just criticizing
[00:24:35] lovely people of the faith
[00:24:36] and it happens all over the place
[00:24:38] whether it's steel moody
[00:24:39] or there's Charles Spirgeon
[00:24:40] whether it's Hussentit
[00:24:41] there's no one
[00:24:42] denomination doing this
[00:24:43] Arminian or Calvinist
[00:24:44] it's across the board
[00:24:45] it's an attack on everything
[00:24:47] we enjoy
[00:24:48] as a church what
[00:24:50] what God is celebrating
[00:24:51] his people throughout history
[00:24:52] what the great cloud of witnesses
[00:24:54] that we can point to
[00:24:55] as stalwarts of our faith
[00:24:57] and these new history people
[00:24:58] have been changing them
[00:24:59] and rewriting them
[00:25:00] and remodeling new heroes
[00:25:02] and the sad part
[00:25:03] is most of us don't know history
[00:25:04] well enough
[00:25:05] to even realize
[00:25:06] that it's happening
[00:25:08] that's a new history movement
[00:25:10] don't do that
[00:25:11] when you're teaching church history
[00:25:12] stay away from that movement
[00:25:13] as well
[00:25:14] actually another example
[00:25:15] we don't get this opportunity
[00:25:17] to get fresh new books
[00:25:18] in our community a lot
[00:25:19] we live in Indonesia
[00:25:20] and so often times
[00:25:21] we don't get it
[00:25:22] but I had somebody
[00:25:23] who is not able to be with
[00:25:25] this community much longer
[00:25:26] he's selling some books
[00:25:27] and I bought a book
[00:25:28] he's moving back
[00:25:29] he's moving back
[00:25:30] but he's moving back
[00:25:31] to the States
[00:25:32] and he was selling
[00:25:34] a book called Crisis of doubt
[00:25:35] and he specifically was like
[00:25:36] you're going to like this book
[00:25:37] it's really good
[00:25:38] and so I picked it up
[00:25:39] and opened it
[00:25:40] and I love this book
[00:25:41] it's so interesting
[00:25:42] you may not know much about the 1800s
[00:25:44] but if you've ever learned about the 1800s
[00:25:46] in college somewhere
[00:25:47] whether it's literature
[00:25:48] whether it's social stuff
[00:25:49] you're going to always hear that
[00:25:51] the Victorian era of Britain
[00:25:53] was this era of great doubting
[00:25:55] where people
[00:25:56] every book was about people
[00:25:57] doubting their faith
[00:25:58] everyone was questioning
[00:25:59] God's existence
[00:26:00] it was this big thing
[00:26:01] during that time
[00:26:02] and that's actually
[00:26:03] I remember it
[00:26:04] as soon as I saw a reading about it
[00:26:05] I was like
[00:26:06] oh yeah I do feel like
[00:26:07] I remember learning that
[00:26:08] in college
[00:26:09] that was just kind of the
[00:26:10] accepted byline
[00:26:11] the 1800s in Britain
[00:26:12] the Victorian era
[00:26:13] with all the free thinking
[00:26:15] clever people were doubting
[00:26:16] their faith during this time
[00:26:17] and I never even thought
[00:26:18] about the fact
[00:26:19] that that doesn't square away
[00:26:20] with all
[00:26:21] with the most popular
[00:26:22] preachers of all time
[00:26:23] lived at the exact same era
[00:26:25] like Charles Spurgeon
[00:26:26] Talmudge
[00:26:27] there's a huge long list of people
[00:26:29] Alexander McLaren
[00:26:30] all these guys are living
[00:26:31] in Britain
[00:26:32] at the exact same time
[00:26:33] that apparently
[00:26:34] everyone is doubting their faith
[00:26:35] and how do those two
[00:26:36] things come together
[00:26:37] in this book that I was
[00:26:38] given, Crisis of Doubt
[00:26:39] by Timothy Larson
[00:26:40] basically goes through
[00:26:41] profile after profile
[00:26:42] of free thinking atheists
[00:26:44] who downed their faith
[00:26:45] walked away from God
[00:26:46] became these atheist
[00:26:47] secularist lecturers
[00:26:48] and then they came back
[00:26:49] to Christianity
[00:26:50] and he goes,
[00:26:51] these people's stories
[00:26:52] are valid
[00:26:53] and yet you never
[00:26:54] ever hear or see
[00:26:55] anything about them
[00:26:56] the history books
[00:26:57] only tell you
[00:26:58] the one side
[00:26:59] they tell you
[00:27:00] that every clever
[00:27:01] thinking person
[00:27:02] began to doubt
[00:27:03] Christianity
[00:27:04] and they never
[00:27:05] tell you that many
[00:27:06] of these clever
[00:27:07] thinking people
[00:27:08] came back
[00:27:09] and became Christians
[00:27:10] I found people
[00:27:11] that were going to feature
[00:27:12] and revive thoughts
[00:27:13] through this book
[00:27:14] I am just so fascinated
[00:27:15] by it and one of the
[00:27:16] reasons that's so fascinated
[00:27:17] by this is because I've
[00:27:18] never heard this but
[00:27:19] this is such an important
[00:27:20] history because we have
[00:27:21] many of us have children
[00:27:22] or friends or neighbors
[00:27:23] who doubt the faith
[00:27:24] who want to be smart
[00:27:25] but they don't see
[00:27:26] smartness as
[00:27:27] corollary with Christianity
[00:27:29] and this gives you a
[00:27:30] roadmap on how to talk to
[00:27:31] them. These are the
[00:27:32] arguments
[00:27:33] that we smart people
[00:27:34] that Christianity
[00:27:35] was true.
[00:27:36] And it's just things
[00:27:37] like that that you
[00:27:38] just don't see that
[00:27:39] we should be teaching
[00:27:40] to our people
[00:27:41] that are just not
[00:27:42] out there
[00:27:43] anymore.
[00:27:44] And so, okay, I feel
[00:27:45] like we've covered big
[00:27:46] time now. What are the
[00:27:47] things not to do?
[00:27:48] We don't, we
[00:27:49] for starters don't
[00:27:50] skip it completely. Don't
[00:27:51] use it just to prove
[00:27:52] your theological
[00:27:53] points and be like, aha!
[00:27:54] This is, you know, the
[00:27:55] press-paterian church
[00:27:56] was all right
[00:27:57] all along they were
[00:27:58] the only good guys
[00:27:59] or what is there certain
[00:28:00] people were like, only
[00:28:01] the certain Baptist
[00:28:02] groups that were hidden
[00:28:03] in the church, who
[00:28:04] ever it is. We're not
[00:28:05] using church history
[00:28:06] to prove our theological
[00:28:07] and we're not
[00:28:08] weaponizing church history.
[00:28:09] Yeah, church history is
[00:28:10] not ammunition for our
[00:28:11] theological guns. We're
[00:28:12] not just teaching
[00:28:13] theology making it
[00:28:14] just another long lecture
[00:28:15] of historical theology. We're
[00:28:16] actually telling the
[00:28:17] stories. We're not doing
[00:28:18] new history where we're
[00:28:19] rewriting everything
[00:28:20] and we're saying away
[00:28:21] from that. So then what
[00:28:22] are some things we need
[00:28:23] to do when we do teach
[00:28:24] church history? Whether
[00:28:25] you're doing a Sunday
[00:28:26] school and you're bringing
[00:28:27] it in there, whether it's
[00:28:28] something from the
[00:28:29] pulpit, you're mentioning
[00:28:30] a story that is related
[00:28:31] to your topic. We're
[00:28:32] not saying, you know, I
[00:28:33] said, jeep, the passage.
[00:28:34] I'm saying you find a
[00:28:35] good corollary. Use it.
[00:28:36] Whatever is
[00:28:37] situate your in church
[00:28:38] history class, your
[00:28:39] professor, whatever it is
[00:28:40] you're at. How can you
[00:28:41] bring this subject up to
[00:28:42] people in a way that
[00:28:43] will actually reach them
[00:28:44] and engage them and
[00:28:45] hopefully be something
[00:28:46] to do? Here's what I
[00:28:48] would start with. Start
[00:28:49] with and seems easy.
[00:28:50] Obviously, start with
[00:28:51] stories. It's history
[00:28:53] and people relate to the
[00:28:54] stories of the people
[00:28:55] themselves. Agreed. I
[00:28:57] think that what we need to
[00:28:58] do is to make sure that
[00:29:00] we're doing the
[00:29:01] things that we need to
[00:29:02] do. I think that one of
[00:29:03] the things that is probably
[00:29:04] top tier we should be
[00:29:05] doing is reading a bunch
[00:29:06] of biographies because
[00:29:07] those, like I said, have
[00:29:08] been something most
[00:29:09] encouraging to me and I
[00:29:10] think it gives you just a
[00:29:11] huge appreciation for all
[00:29:13] the people who came before
[00:29:14] us. And if you're not
[00:29:15] reading biographies, you're
[00:29:16] going to feel very
[00:29:18] disconnected from your own
[00:29:20] faith tree. What do you
[00:29:21] call that? Like a
[00:29:22] genealogy?
[00:29:23] Family of God.
[00:29:24] Yeah, the family of God
[00:29:25] are going to feel very
[00:29:26] disconnected from the
[00:29:28] people who are talking
[00:29:29] with fellow believers. It
[00:29:30] would be impossible not
[00:29:31] to be inspired by these
[00:29:33] people throughout history.
[00:29:34] Yeah, in fact, I think
[00:29:35] two big things happen for
[00:29:36] you. For starters, like
[00:29:37] a leased study suddenly
[00:29:38] feel connected. You don't
[00:29:39] feel alone. You may
[00:29:40] study theology books. You
[00:29:41] might be the person
[00:29:42] who is listening right now
[00:29:43] as like, I know my
[00:29:44] theology really well. But
[00:29:45] oftentimes if you study
[00:29:46] theology really well, you
[00:29:47] realize there aren't that
[00:29:48] many Christians
[00:29:49] that thought exactly
[00:29:50] like you do and you're
[00:29:51] going to feel alone and
[00:29:52] think even begin to think
[00:29:53] you need to be able to
[00:29:54] think about it. You're
[00:29:55] going to feel alone and
[00:29:56] think either you're a part
[00:29:57] of this elite upper class
[00:29:58] of Christians. There's
[00:29:59] only a few of you out there
[00:30:00] or you're going to look
[00:30:01] around and go, well, where
[00:30:02] is the church that I'm
[00:30:03] reading about in the Bible
[00:30:04] that should be moving
[00:30:05] nations and where is it?
[00:30:06] It's in church history.
[00:30:07] You learn about that
[00:30:08] church by reading the
[00:30:09] stories and then you
[00:30:10] realize I'm not alone.
[00:30:11] There's been a lot of
[00:30:12] Christians doing and
[00:30:13] having these thoughts
[00:30:14] side and having for
[00:30:15] two thousand years and
[00:30:16] they've gone on to
[00:30:17] change the world. And
[00:30:18] the number two thing
[00:30:19] that then happens is
[00:30:20] you become humble. You
[00:30:21] realize I'm not doing
[00:30:22] nearly as much of the
[00:30:23] faith as many other
[00:30:24] wonderful Christians
[00:30:26] throughout history have
[00:30:27] done. And you also
[00:30:28] realize my theological
[00:30:29] persuasion, although
[00:30:30] maybe the most correct
[00:30:31] most biblical, is not
[00:30:32] the only one. There are
[00:30:34] others who are, you know,
[00:30:35] we're not talking about
[00:30:36] heretics but there are
[00:30:37] other people who maybe
[00:30:38] think differently than I
[00:30:39] do, who've also done great
[00:30:40] things for the church
[00:30:41] and you begin to realize
[00:30:42] it's okay to learn from
[00:30:43] these other groups to a
[00:30:44] degree and not saying that
[00:30:46] you change your theology
[00:30:47] but I think it really does
[00:30:48] humble you to learn and
[00:30:49] realize that God has used
[00:30:50] a lot of different people
[00:30:52] from a lot of different
[00:30:53] backgrounds that God has
[00:30:54] used slaves, God has used
[00:30:55] kings, God has used
[00:30:56] pastors, God has used
[00:30:57] laymen, God has used
[00:30:59] you know, businessmen
[00:31:00] and God has used
[00:31:01] teacher. God has used so
[00:31:02] many different people
[00:31:03] from so many different
[00:31:04] backgrounds and you are
[00:31:05] just one piece of this
[00:31:07] amazingly great puzzle
[00:31:08] and artwork that God has
[00:31:09] been doing for so, so very
[00:31:11] long and you miss out on
[00:31:13] all of that when you don't
[00:31:14] teach the stories and
[00:31:15] don't let people get to see
[00:31:16] the doubts, the fears,
[00:31:18] the struggles, the bad
[00:31:19] times, the good times,
[00:31:20] the successes, the victories
[00:31:22] and all of it together
[00:31:23] when you just teach
[00:31:24] little snippets or you
[00:31:25] don't teach it at all,
[00:31:26] you cut all of that away
[00:31:27] from the people who need
[00:31:28] those snapshots to grow.
[00:31:30] Yeah, we need heroes
[00:31:31] today and I think if
[00:31:33] you don't have heroes
[00:31:34] of your own, you will be
[00:31:35] given heroes and you
[00:31:37] probably don't want to be
[00:31:38] given heroes by the world
[00:31:39] so you should be coming
[00:31:40] up with these heroes on
[00:31:41] your own looking
[00:31:42] reading and then you'll
[00:31:43] find favorite people
[00:31:44] throughout history and you'll
[00:31:45] obviously you know
[00:31:46] your Hudson Taylor's
[00:31:47] your Charles Spirits and
[00:31:48] those people but you'll
[00:31:49] find a bunch of people
[00:31:50] that you've never heard of before
[00:31:51] and you're like these people
[00:31:52] are the coolest people
[00:31:53] ever and then you'll
[00:31:54] want to go out and tell
[00:31:55] people oh my goodness,
[00:31:56] do you know the story
[00:31:57] of so-and-so?
[00:31:58] It's amazing here read
[00:31:59] this book or read this
[00:32:00] article or whatever and I
[00:32:02] think it obviously and it
[00:32:03] makes you an interesting
[00:32:04] person.
[00:32:05] So if you're looking
[00:32:06] for it to upgrade your
[00:32:07] personality, I think we're
[00:32:08] a little bit far into 2024
[00:32:09] or fine, it's fine, you can
[00:32:10] still do it but you become
[00:32:12] more interesting.
[00:32:13] You have conversations
[00:32:14] with people that are not
[00:32:15] just theology or the
[00:32:17] weather or traffic or you
[00:32:19] know, you're probably
[00:32:20] interesting person anyway
[00:32:21] you listen to our
[00:32:22] shows but you become
[00:32:24] more interesting by
[00:32:25] expanding your reading
[00:32:27] web repertoire repertoire
[00:32:29] and you also get to do
[00:32:30] things like us like
[00:32:31] criticize these people who
[00:32:32] write bad history
[00:32:33] everybody wants that
[00:32:34] you can criticize so many
[00:32:35] people parties were having
[00:32:36] to turn down because people
[00:32:37] want to hear us do that
[00:32:38] it's unbelievable
[00:32:39] Lee Lark calendar.
[00:32:41] The other thing too, the other
[00:32:42] thing I was suggesting
[00:32:43] adding is the first thing
[00:32:45] you should teach you this is
[00:32:46] primary is the story is
[00:32:48] you need to teach the
[00:32:49] stories of what people go
[00:32:50] through and I will say
[00:32:52] to go for students if
[00:32:53] you're a youth pastor or
[00:32:54] youth director or you
[00:32:55] are just working with
[00:32:56] younger people, they need
[00:32:57] this more than maybe any
[00:32:58] other group because
[00:32:59] there are going to many
[00:33:00] of them will go off to
[00:33:01] secular universities where
[00:33:02] they will be taught different
[00:33:03] versions of history that
[00:33:04] will ship wreck them if
[00:33:05] they don't have an anchor
[00:33:06] to help hold them down.
[00:33:07] Of course, the Bible
[00:33:08] and God are the real
[00:33:09] ultimate anchor but
[00:33:10] there's nothing wrong
[00:33:11] with teaching them a good
[00:33:12] solid foundation
[00:33:13] in history as well to
[00:33:15] help keep them from
[00:33:17] washing around the
[00:33:18] ways. There's a reason
[00:33:19] so many cults like
[00:33:20] the Mormons or so
[00:33:21] many other groups like
[00:33:22] Catholics do such an
[00:33:23] emphasis on histories
[00:33:24] because they know if
[00:33:25] they can get you to
[00:33:26] believe that, they can
[00:33:27] help keep you. Yet we
[00:33:28] often just go history
[00:33:30] as Martin Luther in
[00:33:31] 1517 and there are
[00:33:33] some Puritans,
[00:33:35] Salad the Ocean Blue.
[00:33:37] Anyway, now we're
[00:33:38] here today. Or
[00:33:40] we just teach the
[00:33:41] bad parts or something.
[00:33:42] So it is so
[00:33:43] disconnected and then
[00:33:44] we wonder why people are
[00:33:45] struggling so much they
[00:33:46] need that anchor. They need
[00:33:47] to know what has been
[00:33:48] going on in the church
[00:33:49] for two thousand years.
[00:33:50] And if you don't think
[00:33:51] history is important to
[00:33:52] God, look at how much of
[00:33:53] the Old Testament is
[00:33:54] just history. Stephen
[00:33:55] the martyr's speech
[00:33:56] as he's getting ready to
[00:33:57] die in the book of Acts,
[00:33:58] he's giving a history
[00:33:59] lesson and reviewing Israel.
[00:34:00] I mean, how many times
[00:34:01] do we see Hebrews
[00:34:02] that chapter 11 is just
[00:34:03] this big long history
[00:34:05] retelling. History is
[00:34:06] important to God. God loves
[00:34:07] what his people have
[00:34:08] done throughout history
[00:34:09] and it didn't stop
[00:34:10] after the end of
[00:34:11] scriptures. Like God
[00:34:12] is still using them. I
[00:34:13] know that what we have
[00:34:14] not canonized on the
[00:34:15] level of scripture, but
[00:34:16] we haven't stopped
[00:34:17] doing great things through
[00:34:18] God's strength and people
[00:34:19] need to hear that.
[00:34:20] And the number two thing
[00:34:21] is wisdom. Read the
[00:34:23] books and share the
[00:34:24] knowledge that you're
[00:34:25] learning. So many of these
[00:34:27] people over the course of
[00:34:28] two thousand years have
[00:34:29] written books or have
[00:34:31] preached sermons like we
[00:34:32] share it with our thoughts
[00:34:33] say, why is it full of
[00:34:34] just deep thoughts that go
[00:34:36] so incredibly further than
[00:34:38] we can ever imagine? I
[00:34:39] am consistently after five
[00:34:41] years of doing
[00:34:42] or by thoughts and
[00:34:43] most, I am not yet at the
[00:34:44] end of going wow. I
[00:34:45] didn't know that I can't
[00:34:46] I've never thought of
[00:34:47] that passage that way. I've
[00:34:48] never really thought of it
[00:34:49] that way. I've never. It
[00:34:50] happens all the time. And
[00:34:51] when you only read stuff
[00:34:52] from the current arrow,
[00:34:53] when you only learn stuff
[00:34:54] from the last 10 to 20,
[00:34:56] 30, 40 years of theology
[00:34:57] and stuff, you're narrowing
[00:34:58] your worldview in your
[00:34:59] window to this tiny group
[00:35:00] of people. You have
[00:35:01] 19 to 2000 years worth
[00:35:03] of church history to read
[00:35:04] books, read sermons
[00:35:05] and learn from. Go learn
[00:35:06] from it. There is so much
[00:35:08] stuff that you can gain
[00:35:09] from the wisdom of those
[00:35:12] who come before. So if
[00:35:13] you're teaching church
[00:35:14] history, I would really
[00:35:15] primary on at least as a
[00:35:16] starter, those two things
[00:35:17] teach the stories of the
[00:35:18] people. Let them, if
[00:35:19] your students or whoever
[00:35:20] is in the class or
[00:35:21] whoever's in your, you
[00:35:22] know, whatever, don't
[00:35:23] learn anything else. Let them
[00:35:24] learn the names of the
[00:35:25] famous people and let them
[00:35:26] learn some of their
[00:35:27] stories. And if you can
[00:35:28] teach some of those
[00:35:29] wisdom, teach some of
[00:35:30] those quotes, teach
[00:35:31] some of those thoughts that
[00:35:32] are higher level that
[00:35:33] will get them to engage.
[00:35:34] Get them reading things
[00:35:35] that are outside
[00:35:36] there. And then, you
[00:35:37] know, you know, you
[00:35:39] know, you know, you know.
[00:35:40] You know, you know, you
[00:35:41] know. You know, you know
[00:35:42] what? You know, you know,
[00:35:43] you know, you know, you
[00:35:44] know, you know, you know.
[00:35:45] So I think as you
[00:35:46] know, you know, you are
[00:35:47] teaching church history
[00:35:48] is Star Wars, and you
[00:35:49] know what? They are
[00:35:50] outside their normal,
[00:35:51] comfortable level
[00:35:52] and you would be
[00:35:53] surprised how much they can
[00:35:54] often rise to the
[00:35:55] occasion and how much
[00:35:56] even high schoolers,
[00:35:57] even young people can
[00:35:58] often learn from
[00:35:59] these great thinkers of the
[00:36:00] passing go. You know, I
[00:36:01] don't agree with all this,
[00:36:02] but there's some
[00:36:03] interesting stuff here, here,
[00:36:04] and here. And I think
[00:36:05] if you can do those two
[00:36:06] things, church history
[00:36:07] stop teaching it as the lesser thing.
[00:36:09] Yes, obviously, Christ's like biblical theology
[00:36:11] is extremely important in a part of the church
[00:36:14] but we do also need to know our history
[00:36:17] and how we got here.
[00:36:17] You know who has perfect, not perfect
[00:36:19] but Christ's like theology, people of history.
[00:36:22] That's what encourages them to go out and do things
[00:36:24] but we're not obviously getting on to anybody.
[00:36:28] I feel like we're really passionate about this
[00:36:29] so we're not like yelling at anybody.
[00:36:31] Obviously you guys are great
[00:36:33] because I said you listen to our shows.
[00:36:34] So it's really just an encouragement
[00:36:35] like we're so passionate about this
[00:36:36] because it's so important
[00:36:38] and we want other people to go out and do this
[00:36:41] and we want to encourage you
[00:36:42] to see its importance as I'm sure you already do
[00:36:45] but we're just adding a little bit of extra coal
[00:36:48] just to get under that coal, like burning, like pushing you.
[00:36:51] We're setting you on fire
[00:36:53] if you don't teach them about church history
[00:36:55] that's the problem.
[00:36:56] Fire hunger, that's not making up for that.
[00:36:58] Look, I will say, I do wish I could show,
[00:37:01] like I don't have to say,
[00:37:02] I wish I could show all the famous theologians
[00:37:04] that have big podcasts or the famous pastors
[00:37:07] around the world are inbox of people.
[00:37:09] We're not a big group, we're not tiny
[00:37:11] but we're not a huge group
[00:37:12] and yet we are regularly getting comments
[00:37:14] and messages and emails from people going
[00:37:16] while that was encouragement.
[00:37:17] I can't believe how much I needed that sermon
[00:37:19] from 1700 years ago today.
[00:37:21] It doesn't make any sense.
[00:37:23] It wouldn't make any sense if it weren't for the fact
[00:37:25] that it is something people need
[00:37:27] and they are deeply encouraged
[00:37:29] and God uses it in incredible ways.
[00:37:31] The reason we're trying to get this message out there
[00:37:33] is because I want this to be something
[00:37:35] the church begins to grow
[00:37:36] and because I think it would really help a lot of us.
[00:37:38] As people are going through hard times right now,
[00:37:40] and maybe the economy's not good,
[00:37:42] they're looking and hearing rumors of wars around the world.
[00:37:44] There's illnesses coming and going.
[00:37:46] You know who's lived through all of that?
[00:37:48] The people of history.
[00:37:49] They have lived through black plays.
[00:37:50] They've lived through civil wars and the big world wars.
[00:37:53] They've lived through the Great Depression.
[00:37:55] They've lived through these things
[00:37:56] and we can learn so much from learning their stories
[00:37:58] and its deep encouragement for today.
[00:38:00] And I just wish I could show so much
[00:38:02] the big people out there and Christian
[00:38:03] and look at this important subject.
[00:38:05] Your people are needing it, they're dying for it
[00:38:07] and they don't even know that they need it
[00:38:09] and they don't even know that they don't have it.
[00:38:11] It's something that I think the church today
[00:38:13] would be much, much healthier if they had it
[00:38:16] and as times may get better,
[00:38:19] the next year might be the best year of everyone's lives
[00:38:21] but if times continue to get harder
[00:38:23] as things continue to get more of a fight for the faith,
[00:38:26] I think church history will be an anchor
[00:38:28] that many people will be able who have it
[00:38:30] will continue to lean on and many people who don't have it
[00:38:33] will continue to slip because it's not there
[00:38:35] and it will just make it all the harder for them to stand
[00:38:37] when they think they're all alone.
[00:38:39] When in reality, they're just the tip of 2,000 years of history.
[00:38:44] This is Troy and Elise
[00:38:45] and you have been listening to Revive Thoughts
[00:38:47] and Martyr's Missionaries.