Revived Conversations: First MIllennia Conversions

[00:00:00] This is the story of the one. As a maintenance engineer, he hears things differently. To the untrained ear, everything on his shop floor might sound fine, but he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping.

[00:00:13] So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand. And he knows Granger's got the right product he needs to get the job done, which is music to his ears. Call, clickgranger.com or just stop by.

[00:00:26] Granger, for the ones who get it done. Revived Thoughts is a production of Revive Studios. This is Troy and Joel and you're listening to a Revived Thoughts, revived conversation. Another revived conversations, some of my favorite conversations I get to have with my friend Troy here.

[00:00:54] This is where we talk about things throughout church history that we've learned, how they might apply to modern day, and if we think they were good or not. No sermons in this episode, just conversations.

[00:01:07] We kind of tally these, we make a list of things that we want to talk about throughout any given month and then we bring them up and decide what we want to talk about.

[00:01:16] We might get to a couple different conversation topics today. I don't know. We're gonna see how the conversation goes. But the first thing that we wanted to talk about, Troy, why don't you set us up here?

[00:01:25] Yeah, it's funny because we want to be careful to say these are not scripted. We just go with them as we feel the conversation is leading.

[00:01:33] The last one of these that we did was a true revived conversation was on whether or not you should pay for Christian conferences, which was not the original goal. It was not meant to actually make that the full episode. It just turned into it.

[00:01:46] And I just want to say I recently read a review from somebody who had my side of that debate and said I was correct. To give Joel some fairness, I got some some private messages on Twitter or X from a guy named Well Redneck.

[00:02:00] He was very firmly on his side of it. I'm not gonna read the messages because they were quite long, but he makes a firm case. So Joel, both sides of the conversation are here. Just to read the first preview, the first part of it, he said,

[00:02:24] And then he went on and on. So that was an episode where Joel and I had actually planned to talk about much more of a broader topic of how the church can use money and end up just getting very narrow.

[00:02:35] So with that to say I'm precursoring with, we will see where this conversation goes. But right now we're starting with the idea of how Christianity spreads. And the reason we picked this topic is because Joel

[00:02:47] said that he had been reading a book. Is it Church History in Plain Language? Yeah, I think that's yeah Church History in Plain English, I think is the one I was reading which is one of the ones that we recommend from time to time. I really enjoyed it.

[00:03:01] But there you know in the early eras of Christianity and we're going back to like 400 500 AD right your Constantinople eras of kind of the birth of Christianity some would say the Catholic Church others would definitely not say the Catholic Church.

[00:03:20] But where these these step where your conferences are happening right? Your people are getting together and fleshing out and deciding what Christianity looks like, what we're gonna agree on. And he the author of the book kind of made the point that the vast majority of Christianity

[00:03:42] in this era and really for like the first thousand years of Christianity the vast majority of Christians became believers because your territory was conquered by an army that was Christian and

[00:03:58] they were told you need to convert to Christianity and you did as a community as a culture like it was and like that wasn't seen to them as a like a robbing of independent intellectualism like that was normal for them.

[00:04:12] They kind of they would believe as a community convert as a community which is an incredibly foreign concept to us because we're very individualized in the way we think now we want our own

[00:04:23] control over what we think and believe and of course they had you know individual control over what they thought and believed but whereas in today's era believers happen on a one-by-one individual scale. 1,500 years ago I mean salvation was coming in the form of well again, sorry

[00:04:45] I was gonna say the current president of the United States right now I don't know where you're listening to this but right now is you know Joe Biden He is a Catholic but everyone in America who's an American citizen didn't switch to Catholicism

[00:04:56] just because the president was you know Catholic and they're not gonna switch out at the next election like that's not It's completely foreign. Again, I mean obviously the vast majority of these people We don't know what's going on in their heart

[00:05:11] I think it's safe to assume and fair to say that these people were not genuine converted believers but you again on a scale level if you're looking at people that claim to be Christian today's day and age it happens one by one

[00:05:26] back then it was happening in terms of tens of thousands of people at a time and it was happening pretty frequently because there was a lot of world conquering going on so You have this very short period again, maybe maybe you know, you're late 250 AD through to

[00:05:41] 500 600 AD where a good chunk of the known world is taken over and converted in air quotes to Christianity and the interesting thought is Well, it was that a good thing, you know, like what was God using that somehow obviously where we don't endorse Military leaders

[00:06:07] Requiring you to convert your faith that that does not so Wow. We're just starting with a lot of premises there Aren't we Joe? We're just skipping over. Okay, speak. Where did you want to take it?

[00:06:16] I mean, of course, I of course I endorse you you come to Christ or get killed. No, I'm just kidding Yeah, well it's an interesting thought like it would And of course, you know

[00:06:29] We believe that that God preserves his word and that there are genuine always gonna be genuine believers but you know from the time of Christ to the end But would Christianity have taken the root?

[00:06:45] Would would Christianity become the global religion it is now if it wasn't for those conquer conversions that happened in the first thousand years of Christianity It doesn't just happen in the first thousand years because when you when you broach this subject to me I thought of

[00:07:03] different stories of missionaries such as David Livingston or John Payton who they will convert the chief of a tribe and Once the chief goes Christian the whole village is basically expected to join the chief in that Christianity

[00:07:17] You know what I'm saying? So that a lot of these early missionaries on these different places I mean the reason the new Hebride Islands became Christian were because they focused on these chiefs the chiefs came to Christ and then they were like

[00:07:29] Oh, there's where I everyone must follow me in that way. And that was only a hundred and fifty years or so ago So that's not something that's completely I like that as the the more some more agreeable way of looking at yeah

[00:07:45] It's like it's it's really it put your conscious on a lot more ease if you can say Oh, we converted the chief and then the chief, you know shared it all with them as opposed to a More militaristic forceful. It's not really an option

[00:08:00] You kind of have to convert to Christianity both of which again Our realities that we have to come to terms with and let me give you an example

[00:08:07] I use this example in one of my classes and this is a hard example for classes to get excited about because When you teach the early Roman persecution Christians kids are all about it like that's interesting

[00:08:18] and then there's that thousand years that Catholicism rains and you lose the kids a lot during that period because it's kind of hard to Understand the church history during that time when you look at our sermons of revived thoughts

[00:08:29] We have lots of sermons from the first four or five centuries and we have lots of sermons from the last four or five centuries but there's Not intentional but also an understandable gap where we do have sermons from that ten centuries in between those two

[00:08:42] But not as many because Christianity is in a really odd place during those times. There's Crusades There's Joan of Arc. There's just a lot of things happening that are just very foreign to the way we do things but the example I use is

[00:08:57] Charlemagne Charlemagne was it was if you don't know he would have been the king of the French people and he will build out this empire that will eventually become the Holy Roman Empire was basically a big part of France and Germany today and

[00:09:11] It is the first really return to a European Christian kingdom in Europe But as he does it he's very strict where if you do not get on board with Christianity You know, you got to get out of town. You're either gonna be executed. You're kicked out

[00:09:29] You can't stay and not be a Christian But that's he tells the people that like it's not just one day surprises them. It says tada. You didn't become a Christian

[00:09:37] I'm gonna kill you. He tells them as he conquers them. Hey, you know, I'm not giving you any more second chances I've told you guys you pagan people to get on board with this if you stay in my land You've got to become you're free to leave

[00:09:49] But if you're gonna say you've got to become a Christian or the sword is coming down to bear on you And he remarks often how there at least in his story a version of events

[00:09:57] Multiple times people will kind of say they're gonna become Christian and then not now Charlemagne is not a great The students do not like him because he has multiple wives and other things going on that make you go Wait, what kind of Christian was this Charlemagne guy?

[00:10:10] But the way I kind of broach it to my students is look you have a group of people living in your land they have a political system that wants to undermine and overthrow Yours their their goal is to undo the kingdom that you are creating

[00:10:26] You're the only place really one of the only places in the world on that continent That's safe for the people who believe believe and live as you do. Are you going to let this other group? That's basically Dangerous violent that kills people that believes in human sacrifice

[00:10:41] continue living in your land or you gonna bring the sword down and say either get in line or get out and When you put it that way, it sounds like okay well

[00:10:49] that actually doesn't feel like such a crazy thing that Charlemagne would pull out the sword and say Get on board with Christianity or get out because the pagans were doing sacrifice stuff and they were doing some pretty you know bad things the story of

[00:11:03] Boniface which we've covered on our show is very famous of him chopping down the tree But there's a there's a tree being worshipped by these Thor worshippers at the time and he comes in

[00:11:12] He just chops down the tree and the people all were amazed and they find out the tree They thought was planted by Thor was actually rotten and everyone becomes a Christian That's a famous story. In fact on our merch shop

[00:11:22] Our number one selling item is the Boniface logging company shirt however A lot of people don't know that that is very very likely that those people were also doing a human sacrifice

[00:11:31] At the same time in Germany and so okay if you have people like that living in your land is it okay to pull out the sword and say stop or you know, we're gonna kill you and I know today we live in you know

[00:11:44] Obviously we would say there's a third option where you don't to become a Christian, but you also don't kill other people I agree But that's something that humanity didn't develop the idea that there was a third option you you were either a pagan or a Christian

[00:11:57] There there was no other option There was no atheist or live and let live or you know That didn't exist and really has only come into the idea of being in the last couple hundred years. So can we

[00:12:08] Expect people to have an option that they didn't even didn't even know existed when you put it in those terms I think it does make a little bit more sense why they did those things right when when Your territory was conquered

[00:12:22] That was your expectation like it wasn't a surprise to you it wasn't something that you were you were Taken aback by if you were fully understood You would need to convert or or get out or yeah be on the run type of thing and it's somewhat to

[00:12:39] established the What's the best way to say this longevity of? In this sense Christianity developing because in these territories are also setting up Christian structures you're setting up, you know your churches where people can come you're setting up most importantly

[00:12:57] educational systems that are gonna bring up that next generation and That is a big factor in this is because it's not just converting these individuals. It's trying to to Further Christianity as a whole long term through the establishment now an atheist would hear that and

[00:13:16] Get furious at that because the concept of that being done to people Maybe probably against their will in many, you know in many instances is pretty can be very seen as very manipulative, but The other side of that is in I think Charlemagne was crazy pretty crazy

[00:13:38] I think he was probably a pretty disturbed I think he was like a mentally ill person that found a structure in in the the latticework of Christianity It's my it's my takeaway from it

[00:13:48] I don't I don't know for sure but that's kind of what I get from it is that he clung on to the structure of Christianity as an unwell person, but Did God use him did God use you know in the example that you laid out?

[00:14:03] Is this something that the evil that the Lord used for good because again? how would Christianity look if it didn't manage to have achieved such a foothold in the early centuries of the church I certainly wouldn't look like it what it looks like today

[00:14:20] No, I if I can throw two different thoughts out there for you as well One of the reasons so I just finished reading a book by GK Chesterton called the everlasting man. It's a very good book

[00:14:30] And one thing that he pointed out that I've never really been able to put into like I've had this kind of notion But he really helped me kind of put the words on it is that comparing Christianity to other religions really doesn't Make sense Christianity is

[00:14:45] uncomparable in that way and what he means is like look the pagan religions the ideas of Zeus or the ideas of Whatever, you know, whatever the Great Dragon or whatever whatever pagan, you know mythology of North America

[00:14:57] There's so many different versions of it. He's like and that's just it. There are so many different versions They're regional they live inside of a little area and they're they're both superstitious superstitions that people genuinely believe in fear

[00:15:09] But then they also really don't on some level because none of them are taking their religious pagan ideas and going around the world You know, we don't we've never run into Zeus worshippers in Indonesia Indonesia has a lot of pagan religions

[00:15:21] We don't see them going to other countries trying to share those things They it's all very regional because deep down on some level there If it is real at all, it's a local thing. They don't really believe that it transcends

[00:15:35] Time even though there were pagan religions all around the world and sometimes they had parallels to each other They certainly a lot of them have mentioned a snake and I mentioned the idea of the gods falling from heaven

[00:15:44] there are those things that can be comparable the gods themselves are usually very local and Christianity is so different from every other religion that way Christianity is a religion that starts in the Middle East

[00:15:56] But it's for everybody and it's moved around the world from North America and Europe to Africa and Asia It's it's for everyone to come to Christ And so part of the reason why you know a local cult or a local religion when your leader your king

[00:16:10] Lost the new religion would come in because that was kind of the victor your your local God had lost the new God is coming in But Christianity is different and that it's not about serving a local god of one of many gods

[00:16:23] Christianity is the individual each of us becomes Christians and should follow God and It just was an upending of that whole system The very fact that we think it's weird that Christianity spread that way in the first place is only because Christianity spread

[00:16:38] You know what I'm saying? Like if the pagan system was still going on we wouldn't even be asking this question We would go well, of course Zeus is out. He lost the Thor so there's no question Zeus is down and Thor is up

[00:16:49] Zeus stock will come back in the future But we got to change these temples the Thor temples because Thor is now, you know He's the winner and that we wouldn't even be questioning any of that 2,000 years later

[00:16:58] it's the fact that Christianity was such an individual religion that God wanted to have a Relationship with each of us and that he paid for all of our sins And you know that those things that are individual were not a thing for the pagan religions

[00:17:12] And so the old system of replacing the religion it is it's kind of like a leftover Thing that Christianity used to spread even though I agree. It's probably not the best way I think it's why it doesn't really work necessarily today but again

[00:17:27] the whole idea of each of us need to individually come to our terms with our God is Something that we have because of Christianity and the old system would have never done that. So that's my first thought

[00:17:37] I think again Chesterton did a really good job as somebody who now lives in a Indonesia is not a pagan country It is an Muslim country but there's a lot of syncretism where pagan ideas mix in and as I've seen and interacted now in Cambodia and China and

[00:17:51] Indonesia I've seen a lot of these things with the you know, those little statues and people worship them I've come to appreciate just how incredibly different Christianity is because it is what something I always wonder when I walk to the we'd see these temples

[00:18:04] We see people bowing I go, you know The fact that that God only lives in that corner the fact that Angkor Wat in Cambodia is just in that one place Didn't that make anybody ask any questions? Like where are these gods everywhere else?

[00:18:15] But the answer is it's not really a part of what they do. It's a completely different thing And the other thing is to these these this idea of using the Kings to spread it was not

[00:18:27] Always done that way too. There were times when the poor the slaves and the peasants Roman Empire really itself Is more is most of the people by the time Constantine comes to Christ

[00:18:38] Most of the people of the Roman Empire at least about 50% of them is according to some historians were already Christians So in the case of some of these empires where the Kings coming to Christ

[00:18:48] Later just kind of they read the read the way the direction we're going and they jumped in or not That's a real question And then there's a really interesting story too when it comes to the Roman Empire

[00:18:57] Because just before Constantine does his big show of bringing Christianity in Emperor Diocletian Is trying to figure out why Rome is failing and he asks an Oracle basically Oracle, you know, tell us he's a pagan He's that you know

[00:19:11] Oracle tell us what's going on and the Oracle supposedly gets a vision taking some drugs it seems and he says Rome is impure there's impurity in the land of Rome we must eliminate the impurity and

[00:19:23] They Diocletian begins one of the worst persecutions of the early church you can find After he goes away and Constantine takes over Everyone famously he goes to battle He sees a vision in the heavens to accept, you know

[00:19:39] The cross on his armor or what the shields and they'll win the battle whether that story is true or not What's interesting to me? Let's let's just take it at face value and say those things did happen It's interesting to me Okay

[00:19:51] So the demons that the evil side got their vision and tried to manipulate things and then 10 to 15 years later the next emperor That really runs the show Constantine gets his own vision that brings Christianity

[00:20:03] Into the acceptable world and eventually makes Christianity the world religion, you know the religion of Rome It makes me ask the question. It will can God use these things? I think yes

[00:20:13] I think sometimes God looks at the situation of what humans are doing. They're listening to visions. They they're doing this vision thing Okay, I'll give you a vision. Yeah, here's what I'll show you

[00:20:23] And a great example of that is I think in Joseph's story in Genesis where you know The Pharaoh is having dreams. No one can interpret it there's not a lot of evidence that we Christians should take that story as

[00:20:34] Prescriptive and run around the world and start looking for people to interpret the dreams of but in this one instance Pharaoh is having issue with dreams and Joseph just happens to be the guy who's been getting dreams and visions from God and God

[00:20:46] Uses him to step up in this way because God seems to be using what's available And we talked about this a lot in our Joan of Arc deep dive that is only for patreon So no one's really heard this yet but I mean

[00:20:57] I almost don't want to say it but Joan of Arc supposedly hears these voices and Goes out of her way to crown the king of France based on what she believes these voices are telling her to do and the Big question we had of that episode was well

[00:21:08] can God actually do that or not and my answer was something to the effect of It seems to me if there there are times when God looks at the human frailty

[00:21:19] Condition that we're in and uses these strange means such as a king coming to Christ and bringing the whole country to it or Not to move his purposes forward in ways that he didn't and one last thing I know I've been going for a while Joe. I apologize

[00:21:31] But the other thing I would say is we also need to remember just how violent it was to be alive back in the past We don't we don't sit around and worry about Raiders coming through and killing our people

[00:21:41] We don't we don't worry about Vikings showing up and slaughtering our village of people That isn't quite all that big to begin with when you live in a world where those things are not only a possibility

[00:21:51] But they're a reality every 10 to 15 years people on boats are gonna show up and kill Many people in your villages and families before your armies can ever get there to fight them You are going to deal with these kind of things in a very different way

[00:22:03] We live in a much safer world where having multiple religions sitting in the same country does not lead to automatic war But that is not so common throughout history Well said well said I It's nice that you can summarize all the thoughts that I just have

[00:22:20] Scrambled around I can just call on you just to more eloquently deliver Those lines of comments there. I feel that is this a revived conversation I definitely had a revived monologue there for a while. So I do apologize

[00:22:33] No, no. No, I thought it was good. I thought it was good I don't really have anything more to add to it. Do you have anything more to add to it? I

[00:22:40] Think we agree now that we need to get out there and get the presidents of different countries saved And then the entire country will be somebody get out there. I'll see Joel you go to Xi Jinping

[00:22:49] I'll go to um, sounds good. I'll go somewhere else. Maybe you can go to Kim Jong You know, we'll just we'll each take a and we'll see where we get from there. I'll drop a line. I'll knock on the door

[00:22:59] I will say I will say I just want to I know that we're gonna get this comment So I'll just I'll go ahead and preemptively say it I said earlier that Joe Biden is Catholic and President Joe Biden is Catholic. That is what he says He is

[00:23:10] I know that you are there are emails and texts already getting ready to fly in that say Do you really think he's Catholic or you really is Christian? I'm making a statement on what he is nominally professing

[00:23:20] Okay, guys, let's just let's just leave it at that. I'm not making a statement deeper than that No one no one revived thoughts is not endorsing the Christianity of Joe Biden or anything like that

[00:23:29] We're just pointing out that he would tell you he is Catholic and that we didn't all have to become Catholic afterwards This Is the story of the one as a maintenance engineer he hears things differently to the untrained ear

[00:23:47] Everything on his shop floor might sound fine, but he can hear gears grinding or a belt slipping So he steps in to fix the problem at hand before it gets out of hand and he knows

[00:23:58] Granger's got the right product he needs to get the job done, which is music to his ears Call click Granger comm or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done

[00:24:14] Do we want to do we want to talk about something else we want to do two two topics and one revived conversation Okay, let's do it. So the other topic that we talked about I think this one is is a more complicated

[00:24:26] One to get down is this idea of deceptive teachers? So Joel I'm gonna let you go ahead and set up for us. Oh, no Let me set this up deceptive teachers You're talking about like cult member or cult leaders, right?

[00:24:41] Well, so one way we could look at it is I if the deceptive teachers is such a big pro Such a big top. So that's what my brain on a man when you say the phrase deceptive teachers, I think cult leaders So interesting when I hear deceptive teachers

[00:24:55] I actually think false teachers like people who look good on the outside but are not actually cult leaders So if we want to do cult leaders, that one is kind of a different subject and we could probably just do both

[00:25:07] It may be saved the fault. I think false teachers would be worth its own Maybe its own deeper conversation when there's definitely some overlap that when does a false teacher become a cult leader though I feel like that line is is a lot more smudged than

[00:25:22] Yeah, you might be concerned. I would agree with that. What okay So one of the things that fascinates me I think it's one of the things I go back to I will use this As like a discussion point when I'm when students ask me

[00:25:32] Why do you believe in God and it's actually one of the you know? Why do you believe the Bible's real now? What do you believe in God and one of the things I actually point to is

[00:25:40] false teachers and what I mean by that is there's this moment in Matthew chapter 24 where they're coming out of the temple and one of the apostles goes look at what an amazing temple and Jesus just Goes yeah, you know They're not one of those

[00:25:54] stones are gonna be on top of another and I just I think sometimes we read these words and we kind of just we Distance ourself from what we're saying, but you have to put yourself in those shoes Imagine you are walking with your teacher

[00:26:06] It's your friend somebody, you know from high school or you know something like that and you go what an amazing building He just casually goes yeah But like one of those stones will not be on the other and you'd be like whoa wait a second what?

[00:26:16] I guess such a bold prediction I think we often remove ourselves from that that fact that this is just a we live in the future We know this prophecy comes true

[00:26:24] But in that moment for somebody to just casually throw that out about the temple was just out there and he's not even done They go well What will be the signs that this happens and he says that?

[00:26:34] One of the signs that this is going to happen and that you're gonna see these things coming Is there gonna be people who pretend to be me and you don't go to them when they do that? And I just try again put yours

[00:26:47] I use this example in class and when I do it I'd say imagine I say that to you that they're gonna be people pretending to be your teacher right here As ridiculous as that sounds that's crazy

[00:26:56] But if it came true, you would be blown away by and the thing is Jesus's prophecy here comes true there have been people throughout history who pretend to be Jesus or pretend to be

[00:27:09] members of Jesus's family in ways that you never see with anyone we do not have a Bunch of false Buddhas running around throughout history causing massive amounts of trouble. We don't have a bunch of false Muhammad's or false

[00:27:23] Confucius is doing these things. They don't they don't just doesn't happen We don't have a bunch of people pretending to be Zeus, you know either It's only Jesus Christ where for 2,000 years there have been people pretending to either be him or be

[00:27:35] Relatives of his or be you know, and we're currently doing the typing rebellion Patreon episodes the guy who runs that rebellion is pretending to be Jesus's brother whether he knows he's doing that or not and he leads to the second bloodiest event in human history

[00:27:52] I mean that is an amazing prediction that what Jesus said comes exactly True and so for me false teachers as terrible as they are and all the damage that they do in the world But the Bible has a lot to say about them. They're all over

[00:28:07] Scripture, I mean there's so many places where scripture says like this is going to be something that happens Even just there's a story in for the King's story where there's this prophet is supposed to warn a king About what he's supposed to do

[00:28:20] He's not supposed to eat or drink anything while he's in the land as he's leaving after he warns the king and sent delivers his message Another prophet comes up to him and goes. Oh, hey, you're supposed to eat at my house

[00:28:30] An angel told me to tell you to do that He goes to the guy's house And while he's there this other prophet had lied about the angel or something

[00:28:37] And he suddenly says because you ate in the land when I told you not to as soon as you leave this house He will die and that guy leaves and boom

[00:28:44] he got the true prophet the one who was doing the right thing, but didn't listen to God dies by a lion and Everyone sees it and it's such a weird story to me when I teach that story to my kids

[00:28:54] They hate it because they go well, it doesn't seem fair Why is it that the prophet of God who delivered God's message is the one that dies? Whereas the other one gets to live and I I go as unfair as that may seem

[00:29:08] That's the thing with false prophets false teachers they destroy and kill other people's faith and they deceive many people They are the ones who do not feel punishment until later on and it may drive us crazy

[00:29:20] But Satan the ultimate false teacher is the most classic example of that where he goes around Putting these lies out there destroying these people and he has not yet He will but he has not yet received the punishment for that. So what's your Statement

[00:29:39] What's your thesis here, what do you what do you what are you trying to imply? I guess that my implication would just be the a false teaching is something we see throughout

[00:29:48] History as something that has comes up over and over and over again and is as frustrating as it is We should not ever forget that every time there's a false teacher. There are people sitting in those pews

[00:29:59] There are grandmas and mothers and fathers and sons who are being deceived and led away from God And that should break our hearts on the one hand

[00:30:07] But on the other hand it is also proof that what that person said as he was leaving the temple this this man who should Have been just a carpenter should have just been nobody yet Somehow he was able to accurately perfectly predict the future

[00:30:21] Thou over you know is currently still playing out into the world to this day that there would be people Pretending to be him in South Korea. There's a cult right now

[00:30:31] Where they believe this woman has claimed and I don't I think she died but the people still claim or maybe she's still alive where She is the mother of God and that she's a fourth member of the Trinity Which I guess doesn't make it a Trinity anymore

[00:30:43] And I remember meeting one of these people on the street and I basically said to them, you know What do you what do you mean that you know, you're the fourth member of the Trinity? And they said yeah, there's a fourth member of the Trinity

[00:30:54] I said so would you consider yourself a Christian or me a Christian? He said well if you denied the Holy Spirit, would you consider what I would you consider me a Christian said no and the Trinity

[00:31:01] The Holy Spirit's included he said in the same way because you don't accept the mother of God We don't accept you as a Christian either. I was like man that is Sad but also fascinating again to me that this stuff is just still going on

[00:31:14] It's not it's not slowed down at all that the world is still full of these false teachers and these cults Whether it's the Anabaptists and Munster who take over a city and believe Jesus is coming back in that city and they end up just

[00:31:28] Wrecking the city and turning to polygamy whether it's what happens in okay, it's stuff like this interesting to me because I There's so many different cases of this and there's so many different people on the spectrum as far as how crazy they are Some people it appears

[00:31:46] Genuinely believe that they are in the center of God's will and that this is Their their duty as a believer where other people seem to Be intentionally manipulating the system from from our perspective on the outside and it's hard to quantify like how

[00:32:10] It's not just one thing like there's there's different Things that I okay. Okay. Okay. Let me let me try to rephrase this Christianity is so impactful and so Effective at what it does because God knows our hearts God knows human nature, right?

[00:32:28] He knows what we respond well to and we know that a generous loving God Is foreign to us and it's something that is not Not normal to our human nature and something that it it stands out to us and

[00:32:47] Passes the the test of time. It's something that's gonna affect humanity forever because God knows that it is something that is something we desire and something that's not within our human nature and so I feel like that makes it automatically a

[00:33:02] perfect target for all types of people right people that genuinely are good You know good-hearted to have good intentions people that are bad-hearted have bad intentions everywhere in between Spiritual warfare, you know, like I feel like there's there's a lot of

[00:33:20] Deceptiveness that goes into false teachers and things along those lines for me. I think it is a If you decide to look at it this way good evidence for the spiritual warfare for spiritual the spiritual Adversaries, right? I don't know demonic possession is too harsh of a word

[00:33:40] you know too harsh of a concept to throw in there, but the idea that The adversary is using the structure because he knows we Respond well to it to Confuse and disorient and draw people away from Christ. Would you what are your thoughts on that?

[00:34:01] No, I I agree completely It's really interesting I had a student that was not a Christian and And and this student is you know, not a believer

[00:34:13] But I showed them a video of some of the kind of false teaching things you see out there and there was a specific video I normally don't name names But it's Kenneth Copeland and I think that I feel like I can safely say he's a very special person

[00:34:26] And that if you have ever seen them there's a video where an associated press person starts like asking this guy questions and Kenneth Copeland just gets like angrier and angrier as he like talks to the person and it's interesting that you say demonic possession because

[00:34:41] I remember that this student this girl does not believe in God looked at me and said is is he possessed by a demon? Like I've never seen a person talk the way he is talking to this person

[00:34:50] This associated press reporter and I it was just it's I think it's interesting to me that even Non-believers people who do not who do not accept Christ are still looking at that world and going I see a spiritual

[00:35:02] Element to what is going on here with some of these people like this is not Normal in the it this is not what a normal, you know If we don't believe in God weeks if we reject the premise of Christ We should expect to see

[00:35:14] Ceremonies and things to look a certain way and false teachers come in and just look so outside of what you would expect them to see It can break the facade a little bit for them of this whole world is just material because they don't

[00:35:26] You shouldn't see these people doing you know, just having These emotional and manipulative things and then there's another side of it too where we're we're talking about False teachers and how they have caused you know, this unbelievable amounts of harm and damage

[00:35:40] But there's also a little bit where false teachers have accidentally caused Good and what I mean by that was and the very early church right after especially as Rome was accepting Christianity as the religion of

[00:35:52] The Empire there are several false teachers most famous of which is Arius who you know claim different things One of which was areas claimed Jesus Christ was not God But or God eternal but that he was a man

[00:36:05] He was a created object that is lifted higher than everything else, but was not in and of itself co eternal with God and That could have been a real damage to the church

[00:36:14] But looking back because of that battle with a false teacher that they had we now have the Nicene Creed and a lot of well-established Books and things we can turn to that explain how Jesus himself is God and every time one of these false

[00:36:30] Groups show up every time one of these, you know You could even say demonically inspired things every time when these false teachers these evil people show up on the realm They'll cause damage for a while, but notice that they never actually win the battle long-term

[00:36:44] eventually the church creates evidence and shows and explains why this false version of doing things is wrong and eventually Because they are able to do that. Our faith is deeper now. We understand that subject better You know

[00:36:58] we would have never had to explain for example why the purgatory of the 1500s why there was only heaven and hell and that other place didn't exist if it hadn't been for the false teaching at that time that there was such thing as

[00:37:11] Purgatory or even more so an indulgence, you know We have a very firm understanding now that Christ is the only payment for our sins and we are saved By his work on the cross partially because of the false teaching that you could buy your way

[00:37:25] You know out of heaven with these indulgences these false teachers may cause damage for a time But it is amazing how God over time is able to wipe away these false doctrines and wipe away these things and actually teach us

[00:37:37] We learn because of it now as we study history and look back at these controversies We we think through them and become deeper I think in our faith It's just one of those cool things where not only does God you said, you know

[00:37:49] Does this prove there's a spiritual aspect of it? I think there is but it's also cool because it's yet another Another evidence to of God's ability to take what looks like a defeat false teaching and over time turn it into a victory

[00:38:00] By showing how the church and God's people triumph against that false teaching I think another example is a hundred and you know, thirty fifty years ago. This is not really a Normally thought of spiritual church example, but there were people teaching that you know

[00:38:14] There are lesser races and they are not created in the image of God But they're created by evolution and you know These people that look different than Europeans are are actually lesser species and it was Christians saying, you know

[00:38:25] They're made in the image of God. Everyone's made in the image of God. They have souls We need to treat them as such and even though again that wouldn't look like the kind of normal spiritual false teaching concept over time

[00:38:35] The church's version of it triumphed against the scientific version of it And we see now very clearly what a silly idea it was yet It once was almost ruling over the world, but it gave now a very strong concept Every human is you know

[00:38:47] Made in the image of God and this will continue into the future as we look at things of our day that are falsely being taught out there whether it's from the church or from just a society and

[00:38:57] If we make it another 500 years as a humanity if Christ does not come back or whatnot We will see how these things will eventually become doctrines and pillars of the church that hopefully triumphs over them as well Do you think so?

[00:39:10] Are you worried at all about the future because I feel like the reason that Christianity was able to rebound and grow and become strengthened from these examples that you've mentioned in the past is because of the anchor of the scriptures and the inerrancy that we give to

[00:39:27] the Bible and That I Feel is pretty threatened moving forward in in our timeline If if we don't give the Bible the weight of being from God and the Word of God then What are we to base our corrections upon as a society, you know?

[00:39:49] Do you feel do you feel threatened at all for the future of that or do you think it'll eventually self-correct? That's not really so that's a really tough question. So Man, that actually is a good one. Yes And no depends on the day of the week

[00:40:03] Honestly, whether I feel threatened for the future or not There are times where I look at it and I go historically I you know there are a lot of indicators that things are as bad as they have ever been and

[00:40:13] That you know, we are in a real trouble and then there are other days where I go No, no, no, like things are good and you get in a little bit that depends on your eschatology You know, there are people out there who?

[00:40:22] Depend on what stripe they are see everything is working out good or everything is working out bad for me I would say that where we are at, you know as a Western society without a revival or an awakening of some kind. I

[00:40:36] Don't see how we get back on track because like you said we have abandoned that anchor and you know We see throughout history the the center of gravity of Christianity does move at different times Originally, you know

[00:40:48] It would have been in Rome and then it moved more towards France England and then it really kind of centered I think more in England and in Germany as well at one point it just kind of eventually came over to America

[00:40:58] Some people believe and have said and I've seen lots of people say now next is headed to Africa and Asia But as somebody who does live overseas at least in my experience, I'm not sure

[00:41:08] That I see that same movement and Joel you've you've traveled a lot more around the world So maybe you do see it moving over to other places where the center of gravity will be I'm

[00:41:17] Not seeing a clear stronghold where it goes if it leaves the American West because of just how much the world looks in that direction for Training and leadership and books and resources and materials

[00:41:29] I think it will certainly be to me interesting to see where it would go from there and it could just be somewhere We haven't seen yet, but I I don't love the idea of like it's okay if it falls here

[00:41:39] God will just put it all together somewhere else. I do think we should try to hold the ground where we are Yeah, I so that's one aspect of it the other aspect of it is though I

[00:41:48] in the late 1800s early 1900s the West looked like it had abandoned Christianity pretty hardcore and In some play in some places and then we after a World War one in a World War two Christianity

[00:42:00] revived in the hearts of a lot of people because of the pain that going through those experiences went through and That's kind of I think what if the correction doesn't come through a great awakening or revival

[00:42:10] Then I do think the correction will probably come through something like that to some painful experience That will force people to come back to God because of just the suffering cannot allow them to continue burying the weight of that by themselves hmm

[00:42:25] Yeah, yeah, I'd have to say I have to say I agree I do tend to kind of err more on the side of that things will Correct themselves with time. I just when you when I look at Western society

[00:42:39] It just seems very unfathomable to me that it could sustain itself long term with this Just just due to the morale of the people and the psyche of the people. It is exhausting to live in a sexualized materialistic Individualistic world that our society is at now and I

[00:43:01] Each generation seems to get further and further to breaking points That again, I just can't imagine I think I think the logic that comes with God's way of approaching life will begin to make more sense to more people and Begin to get larger footholds in society

[00:43:26] That's my optimistic take on it. I might be wrong. We'll see The other the flip side of it is we're looking for historical precedence I can't help but think of if you remember we did an episode at the beginning of this year on Dietrich Bonhoeffer

[00:43:38] where we talked about the Weimar Republic and just what shape the country was in and It was impossible not to draw parallels to today's You know where the United States of America and many many parts of Europe are in and and a lot of our listeners were like

[00:43:52] Oh this really this episode bothered me because all these things you're saying it's not that it wasn't true It's just I can't help but look out my window and say this is what it feels like

[00:44:00] We're living in and the Weimar Republic gave way to that rise of that Dictatorship that was you know Adolf Hitler and the Nazis. I'm not saying that you know, watch out the Adolf Hitler and the Nazis are coming

[00:44:11] I'm just saying that the the closest to this just loose no no Ground world that we're living in today that we've been in before. I think the Weimar Republic is it's certainly a very good

[00:44:23] Parallel and the the warning the cautionary tale is the the pain that is coming I think is where my brain goes But you know and to a degree Germany never really did recover spiritually after that happened it is still I don't think you know

[00:44:37] You've been to Germany. It's not a Christian country Even though there may be kind of a facade of it And that's my fear is that because we've just so fallen off the realm

[00:44:45] We're gonna experience pain and the pain of World War two soldiers going to war in America led people back to Christ But the pain of World War two on Germany has broken Germany has not fully recovered

[00:44:56] They had a whole half of it was communist for a time, so it's not exact perfect story But you understand like that's we're in we're in uncharted territory There's actually a German named a hot of on Bismarck He said there is a special providence for fools

[00:45:09] For drunks and for the United States of America and what he meant by that was like God seems to take special care of these three groups of people and the older the older I get the more I kind of think that because to be honest Joel you were

[00:45:20] Saying like how do we live in this world the way we do it's so exhausting I gotta be honest with you. I thought I thought we'd have been falling apart at this point

[00:45:27] I thought it would have would have not I mean it's depending on where you look we are falling apart I mean yeah suicide rates are higher than they've ever been that's true

[00:45:35] You got I mean people as a whole as a society feel more isolated and lonely than they've ever been before there is The the appeal of just short-term Pleasure is such a vice in so many people's lives that

[00:45:53] It leads to really I mean big big bouts of despair. There's not a whole lot of Reassurance that comes to people's lives so in some ways we are falling apart I think again I think over the course of the next 20 years there there will be a

[00:46:08] Something's gonna happen hopefully for the better maybe for the worse I think it's interesting because we mentioned those suicide rates Japan also number number two or three economy in the world

[00:46:18] Depending on the day and what was going on? I think it's number three officially now for a while But at one point it was the number two economy. They're very modernized

[00:46:25] they're very similar in some ways to the United States of America in terms of culture and prosperity and progress and yet high suicide rates High struggling with the future there that the youth are very depressed you go to China, and that is the number two economy now

[00:46:39] Yeah, they're a communist nation But their young people are choosing not to work and are rebelling against it's everywhere you you know South Korea a highly prosperous nation that's

[00:46:49] Sometimes considered the number 10 economy and the people they are also struggling with the lowest birth rate in the entire world You see the same problem in Europe

[00:46:56] And you can definitely tell that the culture of the world is in a place that's just never been in before and just even the idea Of we have low birth rates and all the major nations pretty much in the world that has never happened

[00:47:07] Historically that I know of at a time where the people are just not having children because they don't See a hope in the future in that way that is just all these little things like this that really tells us We're in

[00:47:18] Uncharted waters like this is a really unique time But the the good news for the church is that this is also a time when our hope what we have to offer our anchor Could never reach people better than the flip side and what's kind of started

[00:47:32] This was the false teachers the flip side to that is false teachers can do so much damage But look at how much good true teaching can do look at how much the world is trying to live without God now

[00:47:43] Let's draw them back to Christ because it's not working whether it's Japan whether it's China whether it's the United States whether it's Europe Everywhere has tried it now for a while. It has not been successful

[00:47:53] Now is the time for the church to get up and see say hey, here's what you've been missing Here's here's the peace you're trying to live without and we have the answer And what we as a you know what what the next 20 years can bring I don't know

[00:48:05] But let us pray that it's the revival let us pray It's the next stage of the Great Awakening that this isn't you know the end for all these things the light goes out Maybe if God wills it but we're gonna pray

[00:48:17] That eyes will be open and hearts will be moved and that the Lord has more going for it because that that certainly I think as bad as things are what I mean, what maybe a hundred years from now there will be a you know a

[00:48:31] What is a virtual reality version of this podcast somebody's doing and they'll say you wouldn't believe how bad it was in 2024 and 2025 you wouldn't believe it was un-crazy how how far things have gotten off the ramps

[00:48:43] But that's when these true Christians stood up and started preaching and it all came back and now now we can't even fathom How about it wasn't the same way that when I talk about people being treated as you know animals and they were treated as lesser

[00:48:54] So that's unfathomable to us today in a lot of ways That's that's how far removed it could be if if God's church steps in I think and does what it's supposed to do Okay, I think that's a good spot to wrap it up any other closing thoughts

[00:49:10] No other than I I do always I hope I don't know where you is the person listening what you think of these arrived conversations But Joel I really enjoy doing these with you. I do enjoy just kind of getting to stretch our minds on these topics

[00:49:21] I love the sermons. I love getting to go through these histories But I do also we've got five years under our belt and when we have these conversations I just enjoy seeing where they go and what what what that was gonna cover of them and I

[00:49:33] Feel just such an enjoyment of getting to do both of those with you me, too Yeah No It was a good idea when you first introduced the idea of like wanting to do a revived conversation

[00:49:41] I admit I was opposed to the idea you had you had a you had a push on it for a while before I said All right. Let's try these revived conversations, but I really do feel like they Yeah, like you said it is it is a good

[00:49:53] Fun way to take a break from the sermons and kind of stretch our minds a bit Because we are talking through and ingesting all of this church history from the past 2,000 years and

[00:50:04] It doesn't do us any good if we don't think about it. Yeah, I think about how it applies to our lives now So that's what these revived conversations allow us to do

[00:50:12] Yeah, and and we are the only I mean, I don't want to say that nobody else is how much her history Of course, it's not true I think we are one of the only shows that takes

[00:50:19] Subjects from today and goes, you know, not just purely from the lens of Scripture Even though Scripture is absolutely the only you know anchor we agree should be Scripture says yes or no

[00:50:28] But I do think we're one of the only shows that goes but what does the church? Done to approach that and what are some areas in history where that's gone before? That makes that like that's the that's the way we want to approach these conversations

[00:50:38] I don't I can't think of I don't know any other shows that's using that as their model and I do think that it makes The conversations very very different perhaps than other places if you think so

[00:50:48] Why don't you leave us a comment or send us an email shoot us a message? We I don't normally really have to say that because normally with arrive conversations you guys send us your thoughts and I do appreciate them

[00:50:58] we read everything that comes in that we can find whether it's a Spotify review a YouTube review a a Instagram thing I did wherever you're sending it. We always get it. We read it. We try to respond to everyone

[00:51:09] so we would love to hear what you think about these two topics the topic of Christianity spreading and the way it did in the past and The topic of false teachers which which to a degree kind of morphed into where are we at today? Where are we going?

[00:51:20] We want to hear from you on those thoughts and in here what your stories aren't we'll probably read some of those comments on future episodes This is Troy and Joel and this is revived For the ones who know safety isn't a catchphrase

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