Based on a discussion that happened on Twitter, Joel and Troy debate the idea of paying for conferences from a historical and biblical perspective.
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[00:00:00] Revived Thoughts is a production of Revived Studios This is Troy Angel and you are listening
[00:00:09] to Revived Thoughts Revived Conversations That's right, that's right.
[00:00:19] Revived Conversations is an episode where Troy and I just talk about stuff.
[00:00:24] We talk about things in the context of Church History.
[00:00:27] There's no sermons in these episodes.
[00:00:29] It's more of just Troy and I marveling at what we've learned from Church History and how
[00:00:33] that might apply to modern day conflicts, modern day scenarios, modern day theology in ways
[00:00:41] they are often very fun.
[00:00:43] Thought, hopefully thought provoking conversations.
[00:00:46] Troy came at me this week with this idea.
[00:00:49] Troy do you want to set us up?
[00:00:50] Yeah, so let me just go ahead.
[00:00:53] If you've listened to the show for a while, you may be kind of aware that I run what
[00:00:57] little social media presence that this podcast has, which is almost completely on Twitter
[00:01:03] because that's really all I have time for is that one.
[00:01:06] And occasionally as one does when they're on Twitter, they send things out to the world
[00:01:10] that accidentally cause controversy.
[00:01:12] Well, maybe not accidentally.
[00:01:14] I mean you put out opinions in your on Twitter.
[00:01:17] It's not uncommon to cause controversy.
[00:01:19] It's built around controversy.
[00:01:20] It's literally, yes, like a social media, if you're not causing controversy to a degree
[00:01:24] or you're not getting noticed.
[00:01:26] But I will say I don't, I'm not, I don't feel personally, maybe people who follow me would
[00:01:31] feel differently.
[00:01:32] I don't feel like I'm a flamethrower.
[00:01:33] I don't, I actually try not to go out of my way not to be the bombastic guy.
[00:01:36] I just don't think that that's what Chris has called us to be on line.
[00:01:41] I feel like our words in person and our words online should match.
[00:01:45] Actually a lot of my students have found my show and they have found my Twitter and I've
[00:01:49] never had any of them go like, wow, you're really different.
[00:01:52] I did have a couple of them tell me one time.
[00:01:54] You like to put up old man means.
[00:01:55] So you know, I'm not saying I'm cool.
[00:01:56] That's fair.
[00:01:57] Oh yeah, it's not saying it's cool.
[00:01:58] I run church history stuff.
[00:01:59] So I'm not, I'm not saying it's cool but I do appreciate that I feel, I feel fairly
[00:02:11] safe that like hey, I'm not, you know, I'm not a different guy.
[00:02:14] With that said though, this one topic I've noticed is caused controversy every time
[00:02:18] it's come up and it happened again this week where I, where I tweeted out there was
[00:02:24] a conference with some different people.
[00:02:26] And I don't when I do this tweet, I'm not attacking the people themselves.
[00:02:31] I never like these people are bad.
[00:02:33] It's just to me they, these conferences that we have that are going around the internet
[00:02:37] I will they go around the people have all the time.
[00:02:40] I believe just gotten very, very expensive where the tickets to go to this particular conference
[00:02:45] to just if one person wanted to go, if you want, it was $200.
[00:02:48] If you know, so if you bring your wife that's $400 and then this thing also they have
[00:02:52] like a $50 singles mixer if you were a guy but it was actually only $1 if you were a
[00:02:57] girl they had, it was all let's say to me it seemed like there were a lot of high prices
[00:03:01] and this is from my experience of looking at these conferences this is a pretty common
[00:03:05] thing where it's usually $200, $250 to go to a conference and what I had tweeted out was
[00:03:12] something I actually don't want to say something to the effect.
[00:03:14] I want to try to read it as closely as I can but I had basically said, okay my phone
[00:03:20] closed right when I pulled it up.
[00:03:22] I had said you know this seems pretty expensive.
[00:03:25] These tickets have gotten pretty high and when I look at Charles Spurgeon, when I look
[00:03:29] at who was the other guy DL Moody Jonathan Edwards and R.A. Torrey when they would go around
[00:03:34] and speak they didn't charge anyone you know are these guys worth hundreds of dollars
[00:03:40] that we're going to listen to today when those greats from the past charge nothing.
[00:03:45] That's not exactly how I said it word for word but again my phone went off right when
[00:03:47] I went to read it but yeah it's extremely close and again comments went you know went galore
[00:03:54] after the idea of basically people and there's and I can pretty much sum up almost all
[00:03:58] of the comments into categories and actually even the people who were hosting the conference
[00:04:04] who I like the people I listened to one of their podcasts we've had them on the show
[00:04:10] but they were very upset with me for questioning the price of these conferences and I put
[00:04:14] the two categories of where these things kind of go is usually they will say something
[00:04:18] to the effect of conferences are expensive you know your how cheap do you think you can
[00:04:23] make it you know that what kind of world do you live in where these conferences can be
[00:04:26] done for no money.
[00:04:28] And then the other category tends to be hey if we don't make it cost a lot of money
[00:04:33] you won't value it as much and so we make it and literally and I'm not saying like this
[00:04:39] is actually the arguments both of those exact arguments were made by the person who
[00:04:44] was defending themselves.
[00:04:45] Now I'm not running this revived conversation with any intention of going like hey I'm
[00:04:49] going to defend myself on Twitter through a podcast but I just think it's a very interesting
[00:04:53] topic with the way the church handles money today and some of the things that we see
[00:04:59] the church doing are very unique first of all at the time period we live in yeah let me
[00:05:06] first of all just say like from a operational standpoint I feel like I agree with those
[00:05:12] arguments you know like to play del's advocate to you please be expensive.
[00:05:18] I like to point out some people adjust real quick when Joel and I do a revived conversation
[00:05:22] we don't plan this out and I don't mean this we don't plan out is like this is disorganized
[00:05:27] mess like what Joel and I don't normally know where are the other person stands so like
[00:05:31] when we discuss things it's it's happening in real time this is not I had a guy come
[00:05:36] out to me on time I was like how much of the revived conversation is scripted and I was
[00:05:39] like absolutely none of it like this is when we disagree we're disagreeing not for
[00:05:44] camera like we're disagreeing because we actually we are coming at this from different
[00:05:47] perspectives.
[00:05:48] Yeah this is a text message the night before that says hey do you want to talk about
[00:05:54] money in the how church is operate on a revived conversation and I say sure this sounds
[00:06:00] like a great topic and then here we are.
[00:06:05] So am I still playing if I'm are you waiting on me to play?
[00:06:07] Yeah I was waiting no wait no waiting for you.
[00:06:10] Yeah so again from an operation and this is kind of my first question I have for you
[00:06:14] uh is because again conferences are expensive in in our current society and our current
[00:06:22] setup you know especially there's food at them you know if there's people preparing food
[00:06:26] there's people serving food there is uh greeters their staff there are cleaning crews
[00:06:31] that have come through and clean that whole building after they're done if there is a
[00:06:35] speaker coming in from out of town they're almost certainly paying to put that speaker
[00:06:39] up uh covering travel expenses um and then there is something to you kind of pay for what
[00:06:47] you get as far as the uh you want people that are interested you don't want people that
[00:06:57] are just wandering and couldn't care less about what's going on there but it was free so
[00:07:02] you know what let me show up type of thing and and mooch off of you know whatever goodie
[00:07:06] bags they're giving away at the front door uh you want people that are genuinely interested
[00:07:10] there and the easiest fastest way to filter the people that are genuinely interested and
[00:07:15] aren't genuinely interested is to have them contribute towards it uh in some way or another
[00:07:20] so from an operational standpoint that makes sense to me my question is are you pushing
[00:07:27] back on this from a operational standpoint because again I think we can maybe look at
[00:07:38] history and see how society and how we operate things have changed over the years
[00:07:45] and maybe give some validity to it on that front or and I feel like this is the more interesting
[00:07:51] conversation is this a Jesus flipping the tables type of conversation where we're upset about uh uh
[00:08:00] comorizing commerce commerce arising commerce arising commercializing commercializing
[00:08:08] marketing yeah marketing yeah all of the intelligence just left the room like everyone who's
[00:08:15] like oh this will be an interesting discussion but these people don't know what they're saying
[00:08:20] yeah are is this a scenario in which Jesus would come in and flip tables yeah so it's okay so
[00:08:25] let me I actually think we can talk about both so let me start with operations and I think well as
[00:08:30] as we kind of drift maybe as we go we'll move to that philosophical uh side of it because I think
[00:08:35] there's a discussion to be had on both sides so let me start with the operations perspective and I'll
[00:08:40] start with the first one people you know the guy in the comments and I'm actually specifically not
[00:08:44] using his name not because I'm not like trying to call him out or anything but just like I like
[00:08:47] this guy we've gotten along in the past I'm really not like I don't want to cause a beef with him
[00:08:53] like I you know I don't have this is not this episode is not attacked the guy who attacked me on Twitter
[00:08:57] that's definitely not what I'm doing but I I've seen this we've had I've had this argument so
[00:09:01] many times with people on Twitter that this point I was like I think it needs to be discussed a little
[00:09:05] bit um but the idea here is basically we have to feed our family you know literally the guy said
[00:09:11] we have to feed the employees that work for us we have to you know we have these costs right
[00:09:15] but let's look at Spurgeon or or Moody or Tori or Whitfield or Edwards or any of those people
[00:09:24] are are we gonna say that they also did not have costs in their day as well that they also didn't
[00:09:29] need venues that they didn't need to feed people and I will say it if a conference feeds you
[00:09:36] and provides you lodging and you're buying tickets that cover those things I definitely think
[00:09:41] that's a very different scenario then what most of the conferences I have seen which is you're
[00:09:46] paying $200 to go to the conference in the same way that the people who are putting on the conference
[00:09:51] are saying well we have other bills we have to pay the speakers the goody bags etc well I would
[00:09:55] also challenge those people and say but you the people coming to your conference had to pay
[00:09:59] lodging they had to pay fuel if they travel they have to fly they have to play airplane tickets
[00:10:04] they also have to pay for the food of themselves when they get there if I'm if my wife and I fly
[00:10:09] to a nearby conference if it's not even very far I mean this is going to add up to be hundreds
[00:10:14] if not thousands of dollars are you confident that you are giving something that is worth thousands of
[00:10:21] dollars when I compare it to church history and I see people like Jonathan Edwards Charles
[00:10:26] Spurgeon DL Moody and all just I the list could go on and on who never charged anybody who they would
[00:10:31] do it for free with George Wiffield would granted he'd go out into a field but is that maybe what
[00:10:37] the church should be willing to do yes a lot of people would be uncomfortable perhaps going out into
[00:10:41] a field but maybe that's the cost of doing ministry where where what is the goal of these things is
[00:10:49] it simply to break even and to have a conference where we talk about a bit because they're almost
[00:10:53] always a biblical theological subject they're very rarely if I can be I don't in the my last year
[00:10:58] of basically tracking these and talking about them I don't think I've ever seen one that was a
[00:11:01] evangelistic they're always just a subject you know at what point do we say we've drifted from
[00:11:08] what was historically being done if we go back in church history we see lots and lots of outreach
[00:11:14] revivals and whether you disagree with the revival tip methods and maybe say I don't you know
[00:11:18] there are lots of people do disagree with that but there are lots of different things where people
[00:11:22] are moving from place to place and they're speaking at different churches but they're almost
[00:11:26] always evangelistic messages or messages to encourage the body this idea of the conference
[00:11:33] of bringing around the experts to talk about marriage or to talk about an eschatology or to talk
[00:11:38] about heres or whatever you know whatever the flavor is that's a very very new phenomena
[00:11:45] that started around the same time that corporate conferences that we see around the you know
[00:11:49] the country on different subjects started and I can't help but wonder if maybe the church has gotten
[00:11:54] kind of caught up in chasing this worldly way of doing things and maybe should slow down and ask
[00:12:00] themselves is this the way that we should be do yes the the world likes to do conferences as well
[00:12:06] but isn't necessarily the best thing when we're charging people lots of money especially because
[00:12:11] when I think of these conferences you know and especially a lot of them are theological I'm thinking
[00:12:16] that man the associate pastor at the rural church or you know the guy who's the youth pastor
[00:12:21] who wants to be a pastor Sunday the people who who probably could most benefit from these conferences
[00:12:26] are usually the people who are priced out the most like the guy who volunteers for Sunday school
[00:12:30] he could really use some of the materials from this conference he could really use meeting and
[00:12:35] talking to some of these you know big names probably but the the $400 price tag plus travel
[00:12:40] lodging and food is going to certainly in a lot of these cases price them out and I go that it feels
[00:12:46] weird to me that that's where we're at when historically for you know 1900 years of church history
[00:12:52] we've never let pricing keep people from hearing thoughts on God's word and here's historically how
[00:12:59] in case you're wanting so historically how would you do it how would you do well tended to be
[00:13:03] uh George Whitfield's coming to town the church sent him an invitation and then the church does
[00:13:09] everything it can to raise the money to help him so that George Whitfield is taking on his little
[00:13:14] personal cost as possible however George Whitfield might take on some personal cost
[00:13:19] and he would have people maybe supporters donors and stuff back home that would help him
[00:13:23] so that he's not going to be broke on the road and he might be also selling books and stuff
[00:13:28] along the way and then when he gets there and he gives his speaking it would not be uncommon for
[00:13:33] the church to perhaps do a free will offering or do there maybe some of the richer people in the
[00:13:38] church the kind of you know catch George Whitfield thank you so much for coming here's some help
[00:13:42] for what you're doing so you can get on to the next place now that may not sound very
[00:13:47] organizational and it might not sound very systematic it might even sound a little insecure
[00:13:52] but that actually is historically how most of the movement throughout time and and those were great
[00:13:58] movements the great awakening would have operated under that model where people are not going to be
[00:14:04] sure where their next check comes from George Whitfield and Jonathan Edwards and John Wesley
[00:14:08] were not putting a price tag you didn't have to pay for a ticket to come and see them speak
[00:14:14] and I'm not okay go ahead the world is exponentially smaller than it was in the 1800s
[00:14:22] the and so I mean I'm not going to deny that the modern secular world has almost certainly
[00:14:29] contributed towards that psychology and the structure of how churches operate especially larger
[00:14:36] richer more mega church like structures function very much as a business and I think there is
[00:14:42] a lot of great arguments on how this is not a great thing for for the American church however
[00:14:50] there I think there's a pretty big difference between what you're describing in 1800s and
[00:14:56] what is the reality is it well well well is it I will push back because Joel you and I both know
[00:15:02] a lot of missionaries and you know how they get their funding how do they do what they do how do
[00:15:07] they get the money to go overseas how do they they do it exactly the method we pretty much just
[00:15:13] described don't they they go to different places they speak and they rely on God to bring supporters
[00:15:19] to them now we just if the missionaries are expected to live pretty much under that same model
[00:15:25] not unless your IMB there are you know there are certain missionary groups that do pay for you but
[00:15:29] if missionaries are expected to live under that same old 1800s model why have we kind of exempted
[00:15:36] the pastor conference speakers from that model because in 1800s I mean when Whitfield was coming
[00:15:44] to your town you get the the the barrier to entry is a three hour wagon ride through a prairie like
[00:15:52] it was it wasn't you didn't have a whole lot of things to be in sorry the the struggle of being
[00:16:01] alive in the 1800s was the barrier entry if people wanted to hear George Whitfield it was hard
[00:16:06] enough like the people that were there were the people that wanted to be there I guess is what
[00:16:10] I'm trying to say whereas today the people that what and again this is a nitpick of a very specific
[00:16:16] subset of qualifications that is one of the reasons for a barrier to entry for a conference but I'm
[00:16:24] saying it's just a little cross a livestream online and watch something is a very different barrier
[00:16:30] to entry than loading up the wagon with supplies because George Whitfield is talking three towns
[00:16:35] over and you want to be there so you have to leave it for a m to be able to get there by Sunday service
[00:16:39] those are very different levels of effort to go into something and there are again the world is
[00:16:45] small there's plenty of resources for people that do want free and ready access to sound theological
[00:16:53] teaching they can access that if they are motivated and interested to do so but churches back then
[00:17:02] had different environment have a different structure at a different art audience that they were
[00:17:07] interacting with that I feel it would not I'm gonna say this has been the model for hundreds and
[00:17:14] hundreds of ways of church history it has been the model up until recently and I agree with you
[00:17:20] the barrier for entry has gotten easier but also the barrier for travel the speaker doesn't have to
[00:17:26] cross the Atlantic on a rickety boat the the speaker can oftentimes get in the car and drive four
[00:17:32] to five hours to have the conference you can we have many many wonderful churches across america many of
[00:17:39] which maybe they can't host two thousand people maybe your coach your conference won't be quite as large
[00:17:44] as it could have been but they could host lots of people still and bring lots of people in like I would
[00:17:50] argue that the fact that things are smaller that were more connected is actually a reason that the
[00:17:55] prices should be going down not up well and so that brings to the other kind of topic you're talking
[00:18:01] about these historically were primarily evangelical events they were outreach events modern day as you
[00:18:09] mentioned they're really not that anymore they are more specific theologically minded training
[00:18:17] events they are not that ministries primary
[00:18:21] ministry uh they are like a secondary thing true that so there it's it's a triage of resources
[00:18:31] that they're deciding why not make this conference self-sustaining so that we can dedicate the funds
[00:18:39] that we currently have towards our primary ministry in those ways and because they can because it is
[00:18:46] people will pay for it and it does weed out the the people that are interested it creates a self
[00:18:53] sustaining thing that allows it to operate indefinitely moving forward it's not something that they have
[00:18:58] to dedicate resources to finding ways to fundraise money for uh it can function independently
[00:19:07] okay so I do agree with what you're saying in the sense of these are aimed at Christians and
[00:19:13] and I would like to say look if you're spending you know if you've spent two hundred dollars on a
[00:19:16] conference ticket you're not a bad person of course certainly a lot better spending two hundred
[00:19:19] dollars on a conference ticket than a lot of other things you can spend on so this is not in any way
[00:19:24] it criticism of the people buying it uh but I would say we you're right we've moved away from
[00:19:30] evangelistic outreaches to do these conferences on certain theological topics and this might be
[00:19:36] the part of the show now where we kind of drift away from the operational perspective and we start
[00:19:40] to kind of move now towards the why are we doing this perspective uh what is the goal of these
[00:19:47] things because for me I find it a little strange and I know and you could argue seminaries and
[00:19:53] Bible colleges have been doing this for a very long time and it's true they happen but if you find
[00:19:57] it a little strange that I'm reading the word of God and I go wow I have found some great content
[00:20:00] I've found some deeper understanding I should go charge people to listen to me to share that with
[00:20:06] them like I think that is a very strange perspective now sure we've been the church has been
[00:20:11] selling books for a very long time and that is something that I think is perfectly reasonable to do
[00:20:17] but what the church has not been doing and that is a very recent development in church history
[00:20:21] we have not been charging people to hear people speak about theological and spiritual concepts
[00:20:27] that you go back to the 1800s you go back to even the early 1900s that was not a thing if a pastor
[00:20:32] or a professor or one of those people wanted to give a free lecture on an idea or a subject or
[00:20:38] talk about a concept they would just go do it and people they would might organize it and stuff
[00:20:42] but it was very rarely an expense that is certainly if they were hosting it and they did charge you
[00:20:47] which I don't think they tended to do but if they did it would be very very cheap because they
[00:20:51] want to get their content their information their stuff out there and then yes perhaps they might
[00:20:55] sell books and stuff along the side because they have they have to advertise for months and twist
[00:21:01] people's arms just to try to get people to make the journey to come and hear them like it's
[00:21:06] a different problem than we have to know not true if you're in London and they're giving a
[00:21:11] giant seminar there are millions of people in London who are who are going to come like that's
[00:21:15] not I'm not gonna come they're not all going to come to the conference but you know saying like
[00:21:18] you're not not every single time a speaker came to town did they have to lift the wagons and go
[00:21:23] six hours and fact people were bored back then they didn't have you know TV and stuff a lot of times
[00:21:27] they were interested and the most recent lectures and if you lived in London and somebody was
[00:21:31] giving a lecture you would go check it out so you certainly could have made money charging them
[00:21:36] but they just didn't do that it wasn't seen as something that the church should do and for most
[00:21:41] of church history that was the case that's that's usually that's the interesting part of seeing
[00:21:47] something as the church should do because again from an operational standpoint as you've gathered
[00:21:54] I don't have any problem with it it makes sense to me and I'm happy to pay to be a part of that
[00:22:00] I'm happy to enable that conference to exist the more interesting conversation is yes where are we
[00:22:05] gonna draw the line now last let me lay the last sought-out throw on the operational perspective and
[00:22:10] this is my this might be opinion and if you're listening I will say it is a little dangerous
[00:22:16] to throw this out based on my experience on Twitter people are very defensive of their conferences
[00:22:21] so you know this this might I might be getting we might be getting emails and comments on this
[00:22:25] hopefully people think this is fair but I would just say if the only way for you to give a conference
[00:22:30] on and I'm not even gonna pick one of the conferences that I've seen I'm gonna just make one of
[00:22:33] the conference on heresy let's say it's conference on heresy you're gonna give a conference on heresy
[00:22:39] if the only way for it to go forward is for you to charge people $200 poor ticket and a time when
[00:22:46] eggs cost like five dollars I guess not an economically good time right if that's the only way for you
[00:22:52] to go forward with your conference I would argue maybe you need to question whether this is the best
[00:22:58] way to talk about heresy or whatever your subject is as you said live streams are free Twitter
[00:23:03] spaces are free tick-tock is free there are lots of ways we're running a podcast it's not free but
[00:23:08] it's a lot cheaper than $200 per head maybe you need to reconsider what model you're using to get
[00:23:15] your message out because that if it's that expensive and where Sunday going to be asked by you know
[00:23:20] we're gonna I'm how we spend our money is important and you're saying I need to ask the average person
[00:23:25] has been $200 just to get here that doesn't include if they do anything extra and that doesn't
[00:23:29] include if they're lodging their travel their food and their money and all that I gotta say like
[00:23:33] that seems like a really expensive burden for what you're going to give them now maybe it's
[00:23:39] justifiable but you're putting like you said these aren't evangelistic you're telling Christian
[00:23:43] brothers and sisters in Christ I think that it is good for you to put this much money into
[00:23:49] this thing and I do gotta go and say okay how confident are you because again church history would
[00:23:54] say that wasn't normal I agree with what you're saying there the thing is the people that are doing
[00:24:00] that are not the people that are that the people that you're describing are not the people that
[00:24:04] are hosting $200 per person conferences there are it's it's again different approaches to resource
[00:24:12] management the people that are typically doing these conferences it is a secondary ministry
[00:24:17] that they understand people will come for because they know the audience they know the reach
[00:24:23] and they have decided to let that conference exist in a self-sustained way because they would
[00:24:32] to put their resources towards other projects whereas there are different training business models
[00:24:40] dip that's not the right phrasing there are different models of establishment that lean into
[00:24:47] free and steady access to everyone and you know rely on patreon or for people to support them
[00:24:54] other ways to create that publicly accessible content that is also a very valid way to
[00:25:01] you know put those lectures and information out there as well and I'm not saying one is
[00:25:07] better than the other I like the free stuff that's nice um well and I do think I do want to point out
[00:25:13] too our show runs patreon we do also have a search shop that occasionally moves the occasional
[00:25:18] shirt I am not against people selling books historically speaking it's done it's a it's a thing
[00:25:22] that the church has always been a part of so this I do don't want this to be seen oh so you think
[00:25:27] you know because the people are gonna write and say oh see you on the muzzle of the ox no I don't
[00:25:30] I'm not trying to say that you can't sell shirts or you can't sell products I do think it's strange
[00:25:36] to sell a speech and that is the part where I am going yeah why are we drawing the line there
[00:25:43] because a point to me one instance in scripture or in church history before about 50 years ago
[00:25:49] where people would do that where we would say come to my speech and you have to pay money to come
[00:25:55] through the door like that is a very new phenomenon that we all seem to have embraced without any
[00:26:01] questioning of it but it's a sort of it's a super super new thing that didn't exist until not
[00:26:05] that long ago and I will be honest it does not I don't think it's quite biblical but I also
[00:26:11] think it's outside of our history as well to do it I don't think that this is a good
[00:26:14] direction I'm certainly not denying that it's outside of our history I will agree that it is a
[00:26:18] modern phenomenon but I feel like it is a byproduct of our increased communications in our
[00:26:28] increased population it makes sense that this would be a natural evolution of how
[00:26:34] information would be structured in presentations like this it doesn't surprise me one bit
[00:26:41] how many people were in America in 1850 you know I don't know off my head I'm sure it's probably
[00:26:50] between 40 to 50 million but that actually is probably low so that's probably more than that
[00:26:54] all right against our you know pushing our 350 million that we have today that we are so much
[00:27:00] more saturated and we have so much more communication today it's it makes sense to me that this would be
[00:27:09] when churches and ministries are deciding how they want to spend their resources and
[00:27:15] manage stuff it makes sense to me that this would be one of the things that they let be self-sustaining
[00:27:24] so I guess my question on this idea is yes from a business perspective right I completely agree
[00:27:36] on why you might do this but I'm not asking from a business perspective either like you're
[00:27:41] you're arguing I'm hearing you say basically say like hey yeah well I can see why they would
[00:27:45] why this would have started I'm not disagreeing with why it started I'm disagreeing with whether
[00:27:49] it should have started maybe in the first place and whether it's the best way to keep going you
[00:27:54] mentioned that a lot of these are paraturch organizations right who are using these conferences to
[00:28:00] fund other activities but at the way that you're funding your activity they're not necessarily
[00:28:05] using them to fund other activities but they're letting them be self-sustaining so that they have
[00:28:09] more resources to fund what they want to fund and I guess they're not they're not putting the cost
[00:28:15] for them if the way that you you put the cost or fund things is by putting a rather large burden
[00:28:23] on Christians who are coming to learn from you now find that to be a little bit you know not
[00:28:30] necessarily the best way to do things now now with that said a lot of us know that there are
[00:28:35] Bible colleges and seminaries right that they also tend to cost money but the difference would
[00:28:41] be that when you leave a Bible college or a seminary you go out with a degree that allows you to
[00:28:45] get jobs and to do things like there's some there's a product at the end of that on top of all the
[00:28:50] training and learning and if there was a Bible college or a seminary that just jacked up their
[00:28:55] prices to the roof granted they would probably not be competitive but if you go to that Bible college
[00:29:00] or a seminary and you go why are these prices too high and they simply say well we could run things
[00:29:05] for cheaper however we found that you were willing to pay this much and so we're going to put this
[00:29:09] much burden on you because this is what you're willing to pay not because it's actually what's best
[00:29:13] for the ministry and not because this is what the granted purpose is it's just that we found that
[00:29:17] you were willing to pay this much and so that's what we're going to do and I go man that sounds like
[00:29:22] not what a Bible college and a seminary should do and in the same way conventions are design conferences
[00:29:27] the whole the idea is we're going to teach you something you're going to learn something from having
[00:29:31] these speakers come and then you may also pay to maybe help it out but when it gets to be very high
[00:29:38] prices that I think puts a burden on people I would go that that seems to me not to be a great
[00:29:43] thing to do just simply because people are willing to pay you know that much money does that mean
[00:29:48] as as Christians and as people who are ministry especially these men you know a secular conference
[00:29:53] whatever they're going to do they're gonna do but as Christians should we be running conferences
[00:29:58] at such exorbitant fees simply because people are willing to pay that much I don't know I mean I
[00:30:03] can't I feel like I feel like or we're kind of talking a little bit in circles I feel like it's
[00:30:09] a little bit of a different conversation though then our flipping church tables conversation though
[00:30:17] because in these scenarios the churches well I suppose there's overlap there it's different
[00:30:22] than the church bookstore or the church coffee shop or church fundraisers you know that are making money
[00:30:29] um you know that we can have our own conversation around whether or not that is biblical
[00:30:34] because this is teachings right so like that's that's a different interaction than just
[00:30:41] a pure prophet approach yeah so that certainly yeah so if we're talking in terms of like
[00:30:48] ecclesiology we're just singing the church we're moving kind of away from you know pastor speaker
[00:30:52] traveling conferences but we're moving towards the idea of what can the church do that does I
[00:30:56] also think it's kind of a different situation as well where you know the church the church coffee shop
[00:31:03] or you know in the church school the church um you know there we have the church fundraiser
[00:31:11] for the youth trip there are so many different things that the church does today and I will say
[00:31:16] historically speaking from what I can tell a lot of those things seem kind of valid now there are
[00:31:22] actually it's just came to me um there used to be what was called the church pew where you would pay
[00:31:27] and maybe you've heard of this too Joel where you would pay to have a pew inside the church
[00:31:31] and that would be your pew and people you know these were the nice seats and these rich families
[00:31:36] would buy pews and put their name on it and I always supported the church so that's how you tithe
[00:31:40] it was one of the yeah that was one but I always think that was kind of wild maybe because if there
[00:31:44] was any way that you could pick how to support the church I feel like the way that goes almost
[00:31:49] directly against James 2 where it says the rich sit here in a good spot and the poor sit over there
[00:31:54] in a bad spot I was like that's almost exactly what I feel like James was kind of saying don't do
[00:31:59] and yet for I mean a lot of churches and for a long time the church practiced this because it
[00:32:05] was a practical way to make money you know his very is very practical it worked very well it
[00:32:10] was effective and yet it also wasn't great and there's a reason I don't think really any churches
[00:32:17] do this anymore and they realize this is kind of going against scripture even though it's practical
[00:32:23] it is also not really good and it doesn't look good to have this you know these nice pews reserved
[00:32:30] for the people who put money in but the poorest can go sit over there there is I think a conversation
[00:32:36] if he had sometimes about whether or not just because you can do something whether or not you should
[00:32:42] be doing that the church pew is probably a really good example of something that you can do
[00:32:47] it I mean it I think James would be a very direct attack on whether you can or cannot do it but
[00:32:52] a bunch of churches did do it and they thought it was fine and it was considered normal but over time
[00:32:57] they realized this doesn't look good and it wasn't actually what they were supposed to be doing
[00:33:02] how would you manage high demand lecture if you were in charge of that at the at your church
[00:33:10] how would you manage the RSV private situation here sure okay so I'm at a church let's imagine
[00:33:15] a picture I am now ready for starters if I'm gonna have speakers come there's a very high chance
[00:33:19] I'm gonna be running like an evangelist like one I'm gonna be like get everyone in here so they
[00:33:23] can either the gospel because that's what the church all right it's already not what we're talking about
[00:33:28] though I know but I'm just saying that's that I think is worth pointing out though that we
[00:33:32] have slipped and we have changed our lens but but if we're going to move from that subject I'm
[00:33:36] going to host a revive thoughts conference we're doing it the revive thoughts conferences here
[00:33:41] and it's gonna be just a cheap five thousand dollar ticket for you to get extraordinary insights from
[00:33:47] Joel and so now let's I'm gonna I'm gonna go as I'm gonna it was actually funny somebody actually
[00:33:53] in the comments said basically well the good news is if you guys ever host a conference
[00:33:57] I know based on your opinion it's gonna be cheap that's a great question we've talked about doing
[00:34:02] a live event for years and years and years yeah 100% are you saying that we're committing to a free
[00:34:09] uh no uh no classed entry how about now I will I will convince I will commit right now to
[00:34:17] saying tickets won't be $200 all right they're not gonna be on that level why charge anything though
[00:34:21] it sounds it sounds like on principle you're against honestly yeah honestly I would love to be
[00:34:27] able to say we were hosting a free revive thoughts church history conference some people might
[00:34:31] hear that and go it's free it doesn't mean anything but I man I'm I feel I mean somebody
[00:34:36] who are certainly here church history conference and go I think we already is category that are
[00:34:43] are wanting anyone and everyone to come so but but I will say my goal would be let's go to donors
[00:34:50] let's go to people who might be interested in supporting this project let's go to churches
[00:34:55] that are maybe interested in hosting this how can we keep the costs on this as bear minimal
[00:35:01] for everybody involved and let's find out what you know who are the speakers that are gonna come
[00:35:06] and let's see what we can do to get as much possible as this put down through donations
[00:35:12] and through even our own personal cost if it comes to it because I would rather have a small conference
[00:35:18] with not that many people but the burden be very low and that the people themselves can get as good
[00:35:24] a teaching as we can give I would rather do that then put on a conference where a lot of people show
[00:35:30] up and we make a lot of money I just you know I just have to question that model and
[00:35:37] and maybe it's my lifestyle maybe it's the way I view money and the way I view the church it is
[00:35:41] possible that my my view is wrong and I'm on the wrong side of this I certainly have thrown
[00:35:46] on things in the past but I would aim for the if I had to go smaller I would go smaller versus
[00:35:51] making more money interesting so fast forward 10 years from now revive that is a huge mega
[00:35:59] company where we have millions of followers and our life it won't take that long give it for okay
[00:36:07] our live events have become so popular to the point where you know the demand is so high
[00:36:12] we got 50,000 people we have to rent out stadiums we have to pay for stadiums we have to pay for
[00:36:17] you know all of our valleys and you know all the fees that come across with that and people are
[00:36:23] eager to come and hear us speak there's no way you know like donations themselves would sustain
[00:36:32] yeah and how did George how did George Mueller keep his orphanage again again it Hudson Taylor
[00:36:39] reach yes a millions of people for China how do how do a lot of us overseas do things they did
[00:36:46] they did it overseas they did it by living by faith in a very a predictable lifestyle that is
[00:36:54] not is not it's not uh in accordance with planning the event nine months out right now what you
[00:37:03] would have to do no faith works back then but it doesn't work now I want to know faith works
[00:37:08] faith works but the venue that needs their utility bill of $20,000 paid 100% if it okay here's my answer
[00:37:16] to that if this is in God's well if we're trying to do again we're gonna keep costs as low as
[00:37:21] humanly possible if not free which are the goal and I'm gonna I'm gonna put it out there I'm
[00:37:26] gonna be reaching out to God and praying and asking people to join us in prayer and saying
[00:37:30] we have this opportunity to run this giant conference or whatever uh the zillions of people who are
[00:37:36] listening to revive thoughts they went in but we need this much money to do so and if we don't
[00:37:41] get it donated we don't get it brought in and the difference between us running the conference
[00:37:46] or not is charging everyone $200 I would say maybe don't run this is this is the difference in psychology
[00:37:53] of of I'm using business model and air quotes but the people that are running these conferences
[00:37:58] and people like you have the same goal they genuinely care about the content they can't they think
[00:38:05] it genuinely is interesting genuinely can change lives it's not that their selfish and want to
[00:38:11] make a ton of money I mean they're they're certainly probably our selfish people that are that are
[00:38:15] you know gaming the system but in general these are two avenues to achieve the same goal and one where
[00:38:24] the attendees pay money towards it is a more stable and more expandable system moving forward
[00:38:35] in the future with a with a donations based system you're very limited as far as how far out you can
[00:38:43] plan and also how many events you could actually schedule those are limitations you wouldn't have
[00:38:48] in the other model I mean there are so from from the mine point of someone that says how can I
[00:38:54] reach the most amount of people that model is isn't severely a handicap then bottleneck would you
[00:39:01] hear I can think of no I wouldn't I would say I can think of two different names right now of
[00:39:06] pastors who do go around speaking they almost never charge and they are using the model and
[00:39:11] and and one of them is quite a big name I would say that they don't tinn out some of the
[00:39:15] things that does go to conferences where they charge but they don't tend to go to conferences
[00:39:19] that charge secondly you might be right on a business perspective you you might be I'm not
[00:39:24] discranting you the idea that from a business perspective but it's a church supposed to operate
[00:39:29] in the same paradigms as a business are we supposed to just look and use our fun our funding
[00:39:36] and our resources as the way that a business runs saying it and I will say to you all in the
[00:39:40] that is the exact conversation that happens in every meeting in the modern day my network and church
[00:39:46] every single month I I if you recall I was in a church for two years and I was also a part of those
[00:39:52] conversations I know and I will say the other thing too is maybe it's also time for us to consider
[00:39:59] that the conference maybe has seen its day maybe maybe this time for us if the only way for us
[00:40:06] to do these conferences is to charge hundreds and hundreds of dollars on again these people maybe
[00:40:11] it's time for us to consider as a church we're thoughtful creative people maybe it's time for
[00:40:15] us to consider new ways to get our information out and to do it for at a much lower price because
[00:40:19] like you said the world is much closer the world is much smaller maybe it is maybe it is time for us
[00:40:25] to let go of this thing that quite frankly was created by the world that had its heyday honestly a
[00:40:30] little bit I would almost argue a little while ago and maybe it's time to branch into new avenues
[00:40:35] of getting our content out and perhaps also raising the support that we need to do so at the same time
[00:40:41] maybe maybe this is an area where we need to let it go okay I got a question for you
[00:40:47] I do find this a very interesting conversation this spills over into more than just
[00:40:55] conferences though you're your approach to this your mindset with your logic all of these
[00:41:01] churches should be selling their coffee and their books at cost right they should be not
[00:41:08] making any money so if I'm using church history as an example I would say because again and I
[00:41:14] don't know I scripture does not say you cannot sell books I don't see that churches scripture
[00:41:20] also does not say you can't host conferences but when I look at church history it is very common
[00:41:25] for people to sell books it is very common for people to sell items that is historically something
[00:41:31] that has been going on for a very long time it's not brand new and so I look at that and I go okay
[00:41:37] we have a precedent for this that's very old it goes as far back as we can remember books have
[00:41:42] used to be very expensive so it makes sense I have to sell them and even when books came down
[00:41:46] in prices it was still very common for pastors and such to sell them an example is Charles Spurgeon
[00:41:51] Charles Spurgeon sold his sermons and his books and he made at least enough of a profit that he was
[00:41:57] able to tell metropolitan tabernacle I don't need a salary I will preach for free I make enough money
[00:42:02] based on my books so I don't want to do that I'm not going to take a salary from you so I look
[00:42:09] at that and I go okay we have a very long precedent of people doing this I mean every pretty much
[00:42:14] every pastor we've had on this show is written a book and sold it I mean maybe not all of them but
[00:42:18] I mean nearly all of them have right this is something that's very long and has gone on for a long
[00:42:23] time and it's a product I look at that and I go okay I can see why I think that would be fair
[00:42:28] Troy so just purely just on the precedence of church history is why you're giving that a path
[00:42:34] I mean we don't have a scriptural biblical thing to point to right we don't so I'm using yeah
[00:42:41] I'm using church history on the subject of selling books we don't have a scriptural thing we do
[00:42:45] have lots of pastors throughout church history you've done it it's not something that's brand new
[00:42:50] and I look at that and I go okay now I would say let me ask you a question Joel do you think a pastor
[00:42:56] should write a book on a topic let's say let's let's go very biblical let's say this
[00:43:03] this pastor is going to do an exegesis on first Timothy should a pastor write that book solely
[00:43:09] to sell it and make money let me ask you a question and to answer your question uh
[00:43:18] why don't we sell our t-shirts at cost right we yeah in ablons we have a we we have a product
[00:43:29] and with that profit we produce a show that uh we want to reach more people and through the selling
[00:43:37] of merchandise it enables us to be more effective at our reach and allows us to produce this
[00:43:45] right how is that different why aren't we selling our t-shirts at cost because it sounds like to me
[00:43:51] from your approach we shouldn't be making money on those t-shirts but we use those to fund to help
[00:43:56] fund our podcast no no I let me clarify because you're not actually the first person to point that out
[00:44:02] I got that point out in the comments section and five feet different people a product is different
[00:44:07] than a speech on theology so for example if I sell a shirt I mean you and I bought a shirt from a
[00:44:13] friend of ours you ran a t-shirt company I don't know if you remember a friend of ours who ran
[00:44:16] a t-shirt company I bought that shirt I still wear that shirt to work out it has a little hole
[00:44:21] under the armpit now so it is getting closer to its its end but it's a very small hole
[00:44:26] and so I still run in that shirt probably three or four times you know well I don't run every
[00:44:30] week three or four but I've run in it three or four times this week that is a product yeah exactly
[00:44:35] yeah three times thank you uh but no I have that is a product everyone needs shirts I don't think
[00:44:43] there's anything wrong with saying hey our our ministry are I mean what I don't ministry business
[00:44:50] revise studios is kind of a complicated one which one you put it in but I would say more ministry
[00:44:54] because we're not you and I have not taken a paycheck on this um our our model is selling these shirts
[00:45:00] there's a slight amount of profit in it but the slight is a key word there yeah uh if you like
[00:45:05] the shirts for these designs we think they're great go wear them and tell people where you got them
[00:45:09] that sounds fun to us if we sold our shirts which I don't I don't remember how much they cost
[00:45:15] but if we sold these shirts with a you know the average shirt at the store is ten ten dollars maybe
[00:45:21] I don't know pro no you can like twenty five thirty forty dollar rent you can really see I live
[00:45:27] overseas now and I'm not you know I'm not invested okay so let's say the average shirt is forty dollars
[00:45:31] if I go around selling that shirt for a hundred and twenty dollars and I say but it's a great
[00:45:36] revised studio shirt what is your what is your first impression going to be is it going to be wow
[00:45:41] it must take a hundred and twenty dollars to run revised studios or as an outsider are you gonna go
[00:45:47] that I'm not sure if that's above reproach I'm questioning whether you're selling those shirts
[00:45:52] it's such a high markup perhaps to make money or yourself but it's still making money either way
[00:45:58] whether whether or not you're being egregious about it or not you're still doing it to make money
[00:46:02] that is still the motivation behind I have yeah I have never said that selling products
[00:46:07] to make money for your business or your ministry is necessarily wrong I don't think that there is
[00:46:12] anything wrong with selling a product an item a thing but that's what these theological books
[00:46:20] that these theologians are selling in books I'm also a fan of I've never said I had a problem
[00:46:25] with people selling theological books but why do you write the book when it comes to theology
[00:46:31] when it comes to God's word if you're writing a book on gardening and you're great at gardening
[00:46:36] and you're a pastor and you go I sold a book on gardening it's awesome I'm gonna sell it for a
[00:46:41] bunch of money and make a bunch of money and you do it great but if you're writing a book on
[00:46:45] first Timothy if you're writing a book on God's word and your pure goal is to just make a bunch
[00:46:51] of money on it I don't think that's good and I don't think that God's leaders who are supposed to
[00:46:57] be above reproach and who James three one says you know you should not many of you should wish
[00:47:02] to be teachers because you know we'll be judged more strictly I don't think that that necessarily
[00:47:06] is something that people should be doing I mean they're not writing it purely just to make money
[00:47:10] they're writing it because they love the content and they want people to know about the content
[00:47:15] okay they know it can sustain them as well in yeah life goals and that's and that's why my question was
[00:47:23] what could you would it be okay to write that book purely to make money just you're like I need
[00:47:28] to make money I'm a I've got a lot of stuff but I don't think that's a very realistic all these people
[00:47:32] that are writing books well so so what's the difference between a theological author that writes
[00:47:39] commentaries right you have well I'm not gonna name drop a bunch of commentaries you have your
[00:47:45] commentary authors they're very good at what they do they have great insights to it we love them
[00:47:50] we have the whole collection here on the bookshelf you know of our favorite commentary that clearly
[00:47:57] loves what they do loves communicating this knowledge and is able to sustain themselves in life
[00:48:04] they they pay the bills with monies they make on these booksells from these commentaries how
[00:48:09] is that different than the gentleman who does essentially the exact same thing except by voice
[00:48:14] behind a podium as he travels as a speaker a book I believe is a product that you put on a shelf
[00:48:23] that requires a printing press and other things to get behind it and has as I said 1900 years or so
[00:48:30] of church history back in the idea that pastors write books and sell them and yes they take some
[00:48:35] of the proceeds for their effort for their work to create a book it is a labor to create a product
[00:48:41] but a convention speaker a speaker is not creating a product imagine they are creating a product
[00:48:48] it's the it's the exact same consistency being conveyed in both in both ways so let me ask you if
[00:48:53] a person comes to church tomorrow and says I would like to preach about Christ crucified in
[00:48:58] that tomorrow well I don't know you know whenever you're listening to this it's Sunday right and you
[00:49:02] go to church and you show up and the guys going I'm gonna preach about Christ crucified or I'm
[00:49:05] gonna teach about revelation today you know how cool he's like $20 to take your seat you're gonna go
[00:49:10] uh what's no again that's that's a different but different why is it different for a convention
[00:49:17] because it's only a different what you're describing is evangelical which should always be free
[00:49:21] no okay so we should always say that the church doors are open and for free and I'm completely
[00:49:27] in agreement with you but if we put the label convention over it and we're charging our brothers
[00:49:32] and sisters in Christ now we can charge them whatever amount we want that doesn't seem like
[00:49:39] the way that the church is supposed to use teachings you're not you're not seem strange you're not
[00:49:44] paying for the convention you're paying for that specific speaker specific analysis and take
[00:49:49] and uh presentation and the arrangement of the information that he's presenting much like he would
[00:49:55] in a book that you would also be happy purchasing but except here you get to hear him
[00:50:01] but the presentation is a product
[00:50:07] they're both products they're both products we can agree to disagree on this one that I feel like
[00:50:11] I'm gonna dig go do I dig you go to a marriage conference you know and the the couple again
[00:50:17] is well respected for their unique approach intake to that whether those thoughts are being
[00:50:24] conveyed through words on a page or through a choreographed to a lot of presentation lecture
[00:50:32] in person that is still the same product it's just a different medium
[00:50:38] up until very recently throughout history these people would go from place to place they would speak
[00:50:43] they would get there they would after they spoke if you liked what you heard and you wanted to
[00:50:48] support them you would either give them a donation or you would buy their books and that was how
[00:50:54] up until extremely recently in church history and in just history in general these people were
[00:50:59] supported and I think it is not above reproach I don't think it makes the church look good
[00:51:05] that many of our Christian speakers are now going around and doing it for $200 per conference
[00:51:11] and again this is not to aim at any one person this is across the board lots of people are doing it
[00:51:16] who is actually interesting and I have actually looked this up probably some of the most famous
[00:51:20] people who are in the church are known like I don't we don't tend to use names on here so I won't
[00:51:26] but when you think of a person anything of a rich prosperity preacher yeah you're probably
[00:51:31] picturing one of a handful of people and there's one that's very well known for being a prosperity
[00:51:38] preacher I actually went and looked up because I was curious is this you know how much does he
[00:51:42] charge to speak and what I was shocked to find is he actually does it for free and most of those
[00:51:48] prosperity preachers that you when you are thinking of the guys who go out there and go to a conference
[00:51:54] and they're going to be getting money from the people most of them do it for free and I feel really
[00:52:00] weird that prosperity preachers are going around America and going around speaking for free but
[00:52:06] solid men of God who are giving theological concepts that people should want to go to are
[00:52:11] charging $200 a ticket and I just go that feels weird to me that that's where we're at in the church
[00:52:16] right now is there not a better way and a better method to go about this than that
[00:52:24] well kidoki I think I'd be where we can believe it there yeah yep all right well you can write
[00:52:34] in nicely don't hurt my feelings too much here on who you know mate what do you think and yes
[00:52:42] you please know I mean this isn't just my qualifier we are giving our opinions we're not
[00:52:47] personally attacking anyone or any personal group in fact we tend to go out of our way not to use
[00:52:52] names here because that's we're not we're not that show and do know that these are opinions
[00:52:58] we understand that we understand the arguments back and forth we understand that you
[00:53:02] made us agree with us that is great we look forward to hearing from you and we hope that you
[00:53:07] enjoyed this back and forth discussion between Joel and I and yeah let us know what you're thinking
[00:53:13] and if you've recently paid for a conference please don't give that at me and go oh thanks a lot
[00:53:18] Troy the no I don't don't think you're a bad person if you recently hosted a conference
[00:53:21] I don't think you're a bad person either I'm just trying to get the church to question in general
[00:53:26] the direction and when we're going with our money this turned into not exactly the episode I think
[00:53:30] Joel and I thought about so maybe we might have to save it for another rainy day where we have a
[00:53:35] discussion on you know church cafes and church book shops and church fundraisers and stuff like that
[00:53:41] revive that at gmail.com revived at gmail.com it's in the description down below email us your thoughts
[00:53:47] we're fascinating to find out what you're thinking about this topic we'd love to hear also feel
[00:53:53] free to reach out to us on social media but until next time Troy do you have anything else I think
[00:53:58] we're wrapped no I we appreciate you for listening we think so many of you who who do put in the time
[00:54:04] to listen to this we hope you enjoyed this back and forth discussion and we hope that you were
[00:54:08] you know at any point yelling at your speakers or wherever you are all right this is Troy and Joel
[00:54:13] and you are listening too revive that