Sir Francis Drake was one of England’s most famous explorers and a national hero who helped defeat the Spanish Armada. But was he truly a Christian?
In this episode of Christian or Not, we take an honest look at Drake’s Protestant faith, his daring privateering raids, his involvement in the slave trade, and the real contradictions in his beliefs and actions.
A fascinating and complex figure from church history that raises important questions about faith, ambition, and legacy.
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00:00 --> 00:03 [UNKNOWN]: Christian or not is a production of Revive Studios.
00:05 --> 00:19 [UNKNOWN]: ever since God told Adam to rule over the earth, there have always been brave people who, whether by clear reason or inner calling, have spent their money, time and even risk their lives to discover the full shape of the world.
00:20 --> 00:33 [UNKNOWN]: Some try to do this through theory and mathematical reasoning about the heavens and the earth, others not content which it's classroom proofs since even small errors can grow large in practice at a real experience
00:35 --> 00:40 [UNKNOWN]: All of them deserve great praise, both in their own time, and by later generations.
00:42 --> 00:56 [UNKNOWN]: If a land surveyor earns honor for carefully measuring a few estates whose borders were already known, how much more should we honor those who attempted to measure the whole earth a task nearly impossible to complete?
00:57 --> 01:06 [UNKNOWN]: And there is no question of ownership here as there is with private land because the vast ocean belongs to God alone and is free for all humanity to use and explore.
01:07 --> 01:14 [UNKNOWN]: Therefore, the bold and successful voyage of that rare and worthy captain, Francis Drake.
01:15 --> 01:28 [UNKNOWN]: who was the first to plow a furrow around the entire globe that only surpasses the ancient Argonauts, but even exceeds the achievement of the great navigator Magellan in many ways outdoing his celebrated victory.
01:29 --> 01:40 [UNKNOWN]: But let future generations judge this, for now it is enough to record the true story of Drake's voyage faithfully and without bias using the honest accounts
01:45 --> 01:48 [UNKNOWN]: These are not my words that I just spoke to you.
01:49 --> 01:58 [UNKNOWN]: They were written down by a man called Sir Francis Drake, the younger, a nephew of Sir Francis Drake, who will be covering in today's Christiana knot.
01:59 --> 02:10 [UNKNOWN]: And this is like the forward of a compendium or like a collection of all the accounts in a book called The World and Compassed by Sir Francis Drake.
02:10 --> 02:17 [UNKNOWN]: a book based on eyewitness reports of people that accompanied Sir Francis Drake on his circumnavigation of the world.
02:19 --> 02:34 [UNKNOWN]: However, if I would read to you now the Spanish poem La Dragontea which I won't because my Spanish is not great, you would get an entirely different account about not a man, like almost a heroic
02:39 --> 02:57 [UNKNOWN]: a secrelegious pilot, a secrelegious pirate, a threat to the Christian order, and how is inevitable that was just a divine act, how the dragon was slain and the Catholic faith persevered, how defiance of the Spanish Empire and the faith.
02:57 --> 02:59 [UNKNOWN]: lead to your inevitable downfall.
03:01 --> 03:03 [UNKNOWN]: So, there you have it to very different points of views.
03:04 --> 03:06 [UNKNOWN]: But what is the real story of Francis Drake?
03:06 --> 03:08 [UNKNOWN]: Is there maybe a truth somewhere in the middle?
03:09 --> 03:17 [UNKNOWN]: The son of a Protestant pastor, a slave trader in his younger years, a hero or villain, a pirate or a private heir?
03:18 --> 03:26 [UNKNOWN]: in his later years and explore a captain called a general, he was a mayor, many, many titles they just keep coming.
03:27 --> 03:33 [UNKNOWN]: But for today, we want to focus on just one thing, was Sir Francis Drake, Christian or not.
03:39 --> 03:41 [UNKNOWN]: Welcome to Christian or not.
03:41 --> 03:42 [UNKNOWN]: This is a show.
03:43 --> 03:44 [UNKNOWN]: We go through history.
03:44 --> 03:57 [UNKNOWN]: We talk about these amazing people, surferences, Drake, or a charlemagne, or we're covering all these different aspects of people, inventors, generals, explorers, and even pirates.
03:57 --> 03:58 [UNKNOWN]: And we're asking the question,
03:59 --> 04:16 [UNKNOWN]: Not did they do great things, not did they impact history, not are we appreciate not any of those things, but we are trying to understand where are they believers that followed Jesus Christ, really maybe another way we cast the question will they be in heaven or not will we see them again some day for those of us who believe in the Lord.
04:17 --> 04:38 [UNKNOWN]: And in the case of Francis Drake, I am really excited about this episode because I don't know about you Mark, but I love pirates who doesn't and it's really fun to look at this guy, I have to admit I did not know even a centella of the stuff that we were going through today and it was really cool to do the research and see all the research you would put into it as well.
04:39 --> 04:41 [UNKNOWN]: But we do want to make one little caveat here at the beginning.
04:41 --> 04:46 [UNKNOWN]: The Mark and I are a very aware that only it says the scripture only the Lord knows the heart.
04:46 --> 04:49 [UNKNOWN]: We do not know whether or not these people were Christian.
04:49 --> 04:52 [UNKNOWN]: But we do also know that it says we should test the fruits.
04:52 --> 04:58 [UNKNOWN]: We should look at the lives of the people around us to see are they showing the marks of a Christian.
04:58 --> 05:02 [UNKNOWN]: God only knows what's going on in their heart, but we can look at our fruit and try to judge.
05:02 --> 05:08 [UNKNOWN]: and understand to the best of our ability using history as a guide is this what a Christian would look like or not.
05:08 --> 05:11 [UNKNOWN]: We don't know for sure for certain but we are just making our best guess.
05:11 --> 05:14 [UNKNOWN]: So with that caveat out of the way, I'm excited.
05:15 --> 05:15 [UNKNOWN]: My name is Troy.
05:16 --> 05:27 [UNKNOWN]: My name is Mark and I am also very excited about Francis Drake and we've been sort of pushing this one forward because we felt like yeah it deserved the script that we have right now.
05:27 --> 05:28 [UNKNOWN]: Like it took us some time.
05:29 --> 05:45 [UNKNOWN]: There were storms, there were things, you know, in our way and now we're ready and I was writing most of this stuff like last night and I was just I even text you like Troy we're in trouble like I'm 10 pages in and I'm not even halfway like this is going to take this is going to be like a revive thoughts deep dive.
05:45 --> 05:52 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's really a good sign when you're in your church history or any kind of history work in your 18 pages in links everywhere.
05:52 --> 06:12 [UNKNOWN]: and you still got a ways to go here like okay we've got a story brewing here and I don't in the thing is I don't think we will even really truly scratch the surface of all the stuff this guy did he was one of those larger than life people that I really found him fascinating honestly I could have said another week looking through his life and kind of poking around in there
06:12 --> 06:17 [UNKNOWN]: uh, just also things that I learned about while doing this research.
06:17 --> 06:26 [UNKNOWN]: For example, uh, and I'm not trying to spoil anything or anything, uh, but surferences Drake will have while he is private hearing, uh, chaplain on board.
06:26 --> 06:31 [UNKNOWN]: And so I googled like, was that normal to have a for pirates or anything of that nature to have a chaplain on board?
06:32 --> 06:40 [UNKNOWN]: No, pirates did not have chaplains on board, but apparently English vessels actually like all of the larger merchant vessels and naval navy
06:42 --> 06:43 [UNKNOWN]: And so I was like, okay, very interesting.
06:43 --> 06:51 [UNKNOWN]: I wouldn't have known that like it was something just these little things about life that you don't really think about anymore, but they would have been extremely important back then.
06:51 --> 07:19 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and there's a lot of that in here I know for sure and it's going to be great and I hope you're going to learn stuff from us and we also would love for you to, you know, just leave us a comment when we're going through his life when we're discussing also like certain aspects like, hey, how do we feel about this from a Christian perspective, if there's anything you feel like, hey, oh, you totally missed this story or I mean, you totally miss interpret that we love to hear from you we're actually intending to do like comment episodes where we take your comments and
07:19 --> 07:21 [UNKNOWN]: basically we're all learning here.
07:21 --> 07:29 [UNKNOWN]: We're all just you know trying to learn some lessons and and I was actually saying this text in these Detroit other days well like because you know don't judge me for this.
07:29 --> 07:33 [UNKNOWN]: I'm missing a Bible study to be here today to do the podcast.
07:33 --> 07:35 [UNKNOWN]: It's a weekly Bible study and sometimes I miss one.
07:36 --> 07:37 [UNKNOWN]: But I said look
07:37 --> 07:43 [UNKNOWN]: But I actually feel like I'm really learning things about my faith as well doing as podcast.
07:43 --> 07:45 [UNKNOWN]: So I hope that's the same for you listening, watching this.
07:46 --> 07:51 [UNKNOWN]: And I hope you go along on this journey with us because we're going on a journey.
07:51 --> 07:53 [UNKNOWN]: It's, you know, taking us around the entire world.
07:54 --> 07:58 [UNKNOWN]: And it's, yeah, we're in for quite something here with Sir Francis Drake.
07:59 --> 08:00 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think we can say any more about it.
08:00 --> 08:01 [UNKNOWN]: Let's dig in.
08:02 --> 08:03 [UNKNOWN]: Let's grab on and see his life because
08:08 --> 08:09 [UNKNOWN]: it does.
08:09 --> 08:10 [UNKNOWN]: He just takes off.
08:11 --> 08:13 [UNKNOWN]: It's the train starts riding.
08:13 --> 08:17 [UNKNOWN]: It leaves the station and it just keeps speeding up all the way throughout this story.
08:17 --> 08:24 [UNKNOWN]: And yeah, I mean, even a little spoiler alert as we're preparing Troy said, this might be the one we disagree on.
08:24 --> 08:25 [UNKNOWN]: So I think it will be.
08:26 --> 08:28 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so this is going to this is going to be good.
08:28 --> 08:29 [UNKNOWN]: This is going to be good.
08:29 --> 08:36 [UNKNOWN]: So without any further to do, Sir Francis Drake was not born a sur because that's not how it works.
08:37 --> 08:40 [UNKNOWN]: He was born Francis Drake in Tevis Stock Devonshire, England.
08:41 --> 08:44 [UNKNOWN]: So we're back in the old country as Troy would call it, right?
08:44 --> 08:45 [UNKNOWN]: Do you call the old country still?
08:46 --> 08:48 [UNKNOWN]: We definitely do not call out the old country.
08:49 --> 08:59 [UNKNOWN]: So nice as a joke because we don't live in America I'll be like, oh back in the old country to my wife as a humorous clip because we don't live in America But I definitely would never refer to England as the old country.
09:00 --> 09:00 [UNKNOWN]: That's down until from 1776.
09:00 --> 09:01 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you very much
09:04 --> 09:07 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, okay, okay, sorry, touching on other things here.
09:07 --> 09:14 [UNKNOWN]: We're already just it was the first sentence after biography and we're already gone But I do appreciate I definitely would not have known that was pronounced devinsure.
09:15 --> 09:19 [UNKNOWN]: I would have looked at it as devint and devon shire So that was some good clarifiers for me
09:21 --> 09:24 [UNKNOWN]: I'm just guessing here, but, you know, as a European, I have the moral high ground.
09:24 --> 09:25 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it's our 100%.
09:26 --> 09:27 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, good.
09:27 --> 09:27 [UNKNOWN]: Let's go.
09:27 --> 09:30 [UNKNOWN]: So we're in Tefistok, Devonshire in England.
09:31 --> 09:37 [UNKNOWN]: Around the year 1514, Sir Francis Drake or Francis Drake at the time is born to Edmund Drake, oldest of 12 children.
09:38 --> 09:49 [UNKNOWN]: And Oldman Edmund was a farmer and part-time creature, or he was a part-time creature and a farmer like some people emphasize one more than the other different sources.
09:49 --> 09:53 [UNKNOWN]: And you're gonna hear us say different sources a lot.
09:53 --> 09:58 [UNKNOWN]: I think this episode there is a lot out here on Francis Drake and it starts right away.
09:59 --> 10:01 [UNKNOWN]: Right away, it starts with different stories.
10:01 --> 10:05 [UNKNOWN]: Two different groups of people wrote about Francis Drake at the same time.
10:06 --> 10:14 [UNKNOWN]: But one group of people saw them, I mean, the word terrace probably is not a far off word as how the Spanish Catholics would have beat them in history.
10:14 --> 10:20 [UNKNOWN]: Whereas, of course, the English view of as this wonderful, you know, David Verscoliah's story.
10:20 --> 10:27 [UNKNOWN]: And so, yeah, they're both writing and historians love to take both sides, even though I personally
10:29 --> 10:45 [UNKNOWN]: And going, I'm not really sure what the Spanish Catholics would have to say about this that much, but so, yes, they're going to, the one side is he's born from a normal preaching farmer family and then the, you know, the other side will be like he's born from the dragon because he is a dragon.
10:58 --> 11:03 [UNKNOWN]: So it's kind of like a cool, I can see where they know why they gave him that nickname is kind of cool.
11:03 --> 11:05 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it is, that is, that is very true.
11:05 --> 11:14 [UNKNOWN]: So, um, Rin, Tathas stocked Deventure still and, and his dad is either farming or preaching, you know, depending on the day.
11:16 --> 11:31 [UNKNOWN]: And this is a time in England, and Troy can tell you a lot more about this about church history, but England is just being thrown back and forth between the Protestants and the Catholic, so we have King Henry D. Eighth in 1534, sorry, I know speaking English.
11:36 --> 11:48 [UNKNOWN]: 1534, he splits up from Rome and he basically begins what will later become the Anglican Church and in 1540, they're Protestants, but they're still Catholics around in their mat.
11:48 --> 11:56 [UNKNOWN]: So the story is that Drake's family, Edmund Drake, was actually persecuted where they lived and then they fled to Plymouth.
11:57 --> 12:06 [UNKNOWN]: or the story is that he was actually in trouble for robbery and assault, and that's why he fled the county that he was living in.
12:06 --> 12:08 [UNKNOWN]: Again, different sources, different stories.
12:09 --> 12:16 [UNKNOWN]: Either way, Francis ended up moving to Plymouth and he was probably already there before his dad got an
12:21 --> 12:31 [UNKNOWN]: and now we get a very important part of the story enters in and it is a family, the family of Francis that was already living in Plymouth called the Hawkins family.
12:31 --> 12:38 [UNKNOWN]: And while Francis Drake grows up, Plymouth is by the sea like if you would see the map of England, you have like this, this sort of
12:39 --> 12:46 [UNKNOWN]: tip at the, yeah, if you look at it from the top like the left bottom part that's where Plymouth is, it's on the channel.
12:46 --> 12:49 [UNKNOWN]: So if you can swim very well, you could swim to France.
12:49 --> 12:50 [UNKNOWN]: It's quite a waste there.
12:51 --> 12:52 [UNKNOWN]: But that's where he is.
12:52 --> 12:54 [UNKNOWN]: So English channel lots of trade going on.
12:55 --> 12:57 [UNKNOWN]: And Francis Drake, he gets involved.
12:57 --> 12:59 [UNKNOWN]: He starts working on boats.
12:59 --> 13:01 [UNKNOWN]: He's like on the water the whole time.
13:01 --> 13:02 [UNKNOWN]: And he does really well.
13:02 --> 13:06 [UNKNOWN]: He does so well that at one point the man that he's working for
13:07 --> 13:09 [UNKNOWN]: Passes away and leaves him his own boat.
13:10 --> 13:11 [UNKNOWN]: So that's that's a pretty big deal.
13:11 --> 13:13 [UNKNOWN]: You know, back then Get off of it.
13:13 --> 13:16 [UNKNOWN]: It's Mark there like you know saying like, hey, I see this future for you.
13:16 --> 13:19 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we don't know how to master pass the way.
13:19 --> 13:32 [UNKNOWN]: You know, if it was like the boat actually sank or something and he got like a like He got a submarine, but he gets the boat and he just keeps working out at sea in the channel
13:33 --> 13:43 [UNKNOWN]: the smaller waters for what's kind of come later because the Hawkins family we mentioned before he gets involved with them and mainly with a guy named John Hawkins.
13:43 --> 13:55 [UNKNOWN]: They become good friends, they come become good business partners and Drake gets involved into some bigger waters, some deeper oceans and that is the Atlantic Ocean.
13:56 --> 14:05 [UNKNOWN]: Now it's good to know the British or the English, sorry, I actually was very confused working on this, but by this time they were really only called the English British comes way later.
14:06 --> 14:21 [UNKNOWN]: They're the English, they are late to the party basically, like Spain, Portugal, they're all the way in the Americas, they're, you know, in the new country, they're really out there and just discovering everything, taking everything and
14:22 --> 14:23 [UNKNOWN]: England is late to the party.
14:23 --> 14:31 [UNKNOWN]: Like they just, and by now, Spain has set up sort of a monopoly that even say like, hey, we're the only ones allowed to do this.
14:31 --> 14:36 [UNKNOWN]: We're the only ones allowed to bring people from Africa to the Americas, slave trading.
14:36 --> 14:38 [UNKNOWN]: We're the only ones allowed to do this.
14:38 --> 14:38 [UNKNOWN]: Anyone else
14:44 --> 14:49 [UNKNOWN]: Francis Drake and mainly his business partner, John Hawkins, they don't care.
14:49 --> 14:54 [UNKNOWN]: They get some boats together, they sail to West Africa, they work with the local kings.
14:55 --> 15:02 [UNKNOWN]: The local kings are very eager to get rid of their competitors, so Hawkins and Drake have the perfect solution for them.
15:02 --> 15:07 [UNKNOWN]: Let's take them to another continent, especially in those days that would definitely take care of the problem.
15:08 --> 15:12 [UNKNOWN]: And you know, even though the Spanish set like, hey, you can do this.
15:13 --> 15:15 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, who's going to know, like, there's no satellites.
15:15 --> 15:16 [UNKNOWN]: There's no phones.
15:16 --> 15:17 [UNKNOWN]: No one's going to like, you know, call back on me.
15:17 --> 15:20 [UNKNOWN]: Hey, like, there's a guy here who says he has slaves and he's from England.
15:20 --> 15:21 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
15:21 --> 15:22 [UNKNOWN]: That's not going to happen.
15:22 --> 15:26 [UNKNOWN]: In the slaves, I mean, it's not this is obviously not a pretty part of any story.
15:27 --> 15:39 [UNKNOWN]: You have to understand where it began, slaves did not live very long, like it was not uncommon for a lot of them to either not make the travel well or to not survive the extremely harsh conditions and the colonies.
15:39 --> 15:55 [UNKNOWN]: And so having somebody bring more and sell them to you, it helps replenish again, this is not a good way to look at human life, obviously everyone and we understand slavery is very bad, but they don't understand that they don't really seem to see a problem with that.
15:55 --> 16:11 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so yeah, that's they get involved in this business and this is actually the first time that Drake together with with his John Hawkins makes it over the Atlantic they sale to like the what we now called a Caribbean and they called it the West Indies because they thought.
16:12 --> 16:33 [UNKNOWN]: It was the other part of the East Indies that they found before they were missing some pieces of the map still But they called it the West Indies and they bring all these people over to make a lot of money and they go back home And actually and this is an important detail and the Queen of England Queen Elizabeth she's ain't on it like she knows this is happening She knows there's
16:34 --> 16:39 [UNKNOWN]: English people doing this slave trading, and she's actually like buying into the expeditions.
16:40 --> 16:46 [UNKNOWN]: She's supporting it maybe not as public as, you know, if it would come out, it would not be good.
16:46 --> 16:56 [UNKNOWN]: Spanish would be angry, but at least on a hash hash, she is definitely supporting this because it is also sponsoring the state like the state is getting a cut of the money that they're making.
16:57 --> 17:05 [UNKNOWN]: The second voyage that they make in 1568, and by now Francis Drake gets his own ship within the fleet, so he's rising through the ranks.
17:06 --> 17:16 [UNKNOWN]: And they go to a place called San Juan de Ulua of the coast of Mexico to hopefully sell slaves.
17:16 --> 17:24 [UNKNOWN]: It does not work out, actually, in another source, I didn't put in the script, but they actually sort of had to let go of the slaves without getting payment for them, so there's like,
17:25 --> 17:29 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it didn't work out for some reason, but now they get into trouble with the Spanish.
17:30 --> 17:37 [UNKNOWN]: And what happens is that their fleet, like Hawkins is fleet, they just get destroyed, like they get in trouble.
17:37 --> 17:40 [UNKNOWN]: There's a fire boat, which is just the fire boat.
17:40 --> 17:42 [UNKNOWN]: You set a boat and fire and sail it into another boat.
17:43 --> 17:44 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know how you do that.
17:44 --> 17:48 [UNKNOWN]: Like, how do you sail that boat on fire?
17:48 --> 17:49 [UNKNOWN]: Does the guy who sails it?
17:49 --> 17:51 [UNKNOWN]: Does he just die trying to get the boat to them?
17:51 --> 17:55 [UNKNOWN]: Do you just push it and hope the boat lands against their boat like that is?
17:55 --> 18:00 [UNKNOWN]: such an interesting aspect of warfare to me, and it comes up a couple of times in the story.
18:01 --> 18:08 [UNKNOWN]: And I just am like, I'm fascinated by the idea that there's somebody who's just sailing on a boat that's mostly on fire, like we're gonna aim it for that spot.
18:08 --> 18:13 [UNKNOWN]: Or again, you just push it off and go, well, that'll be great if it hits that other boat, like I'm hoping it will.
18:14 --> 18:17 [UNKNOWN]: I'm actually now picturing just a guy standing at like, you know, the big.
18:17 --> 18:30 [UNKNOWN]: You call the world like the, the wheel of the ship, but standing like a bucket of water to, to that to keep him safe from the lanes around or maybe, you know, maybe you just set the front part of the ship on fire and then you sail into.
18:30 --> 18:35 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so that's a really I'm sure there's a technical explanation.
18:35 --> 18:42 [UNKNOWN]: I'm sure that these naval people know how to do it because again, it happens a couple different times of the story where it gets very effective and very damaging.
18:42 --> 18:44 [UNKNOWN]: I just personally don't know how you would do that.
18:44 --> 18:50 [UNKNOWN]: Well, I am pretty sure it's a one-off thing like it's yeah, but if you'll think the good boat comes back and you get to try it again.
18:50 --> 18:55 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, just maybe there's like a rope at the end and you can just no pull it back and then we should have one didn't you?
18:55 --> 18:56 [UNKNOWN]: I burned the right way.
18:56 --> 18:57 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I don't know.
18:57 --> 18:59 [UNKNOWN]: It's a very fascinating part of the story to me.
18:59 --> 19:03 [UNKNOWN]: The thing we oftentimes can be, you know, C.S.
19:03 --> 19:05 [UNKNOWN]: Lewis called it chronological snobbery.
19:05 --> 19:08 [UNKNOWN]: Like we can look back on the past and you know, oh, these people are so backwards.
19:08 --> 19:10 [UNKNOWN]: And you know, we're done with slave trading.
19:10 --> 19:12 [UNKNOWN]: We're like, oh, that is very morally backwards.
19:12 --> 19:14 [UNKNOWN]: But then they do something like fireboats.
19:14 --> 19:21 [UNKNOWN]: And I don't know that any of us, if I, if I took a hundred random people today and said, make a fireboat hit that boat across the ocean over there,
19:21 --> 19:22 [UNKNOWN]: your lives depend on it.
19:22 --> 19:30 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think any of us would live, like I think we would all fail to do that because it's just such a completely unused skill that we no longer have.
19:30 --> 19:32 [UNKNOWN]: It just seems like bad that fascinating me.
19:32 --> 19:38 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, let's be honest, if they put us on a boat that was nonfire, we probably wouldn't make it across the ocean either.
19:38 --> 19:42 [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, it's you know, a lost our great point at a great point.
19:42 --> 19:42 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
19:43 --> 19:49 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, well, there is fireboats, and it turns out really devastating for Hawkins.
19:49 --> 20:00 [UNKNOWN]: His ship gets fireboated, I guess, it's a verb now, and Drake sees this from his own vessel called Judas, and he's like, hmm, I'm out.
20:00 --> 20:00 [UNKNOWN]: He doesn't want 80.
20:01 --> 20:05 [UNKNOWN]: He sails back for England, and he's like, no, I'm not doing this.
20:05 --> 20:11 [UNKNOWN]: John Hawkins, he thought like Drake thought for sure he's that like who's going to survive a fireboat apparently.
20:13 --> 20:25 [UNKNOWN]: But he survives, he makes his way back to England, and there is some, you know, must have been some tough conversations happening there, but we do see later on in the story that they make immense that they work together again later.
20:25 --> 20:30 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, they'll specifically work together to take down the Spanish Armato, which I thought was pretty fascinating.
20:30 --> 20:36 [UNKNOWN]: And at one point, they like, you know, one of the, I think it's Francis Drake's actually ship will get in trouble.
20:36 --> 20:42 [UNKNOWN]: And it will be John Hawkins, another guy right up on two boats that kind of like help get him out of the heavy, heavy fire as it were.
20:42 --> 20:45 [UNKNOWN]: So they're at that level of close again down the road.
20:46 --> 20:46 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
20:46 --> 20:53 [UNKNOWN]: So they, they make immense, and like that's very clear because otherwise Hawkins would have could have done the exact same thing later on, but
20:54 --> 21:01 [UNKNOWN]: Not this time Drake flees the scene, he makes it back home and this is a very defining home for Drake.
21:01 --> 21:07 [UNKNOWN]: So this defeat by the Catholic Spaniards, he's like, this is never going to happen again.
21:07 --> 21:14 [UNKNOWN]: He's a Protestant and yeah, I mean, the Catholics, they're basically, you know, the evil in the world.
21:15 --> 21:20 [UNKNOWN]: So he is out for Spanish blood, as far as he concerned, it's open season for anything Spanish.
21:20 --> 21:27 [UNKNOWN]: Like, he pretty much from now on will devote his life to hurting Spanish interests as much as he can.
21:28 --> 21:32 [UNKNOWN]: it and that like that can kind of sound bingeful or a little off track.
21:33 --> 21:37 [UNKNOWN]: But if I can like if I can make paint a little bit of a broader context to maybe explain it.
21:37 --> 21:39 [UNKNOWN]: The Spanish run the new world.
21:39 --> 21:41 [UNKNOWN]: The Spanish are running Africa.
21:42 --> 21:44 [UNKNOWN]: The Spanish are running like the Netherlands at this point.
21:44 --> 21:48 [UNKNOWN]: The Spanish are running everything from Mexico and California to Peru.
21:48 --> 21:51 [UNKNOWN]: And they aren't being kind to the people that they run.
21:51 --> 21:51 [UNKNOWN]: They are a brutal,
21:53 --> 21:59 [UNKNOWN]: Empire, at least from the perspective of England, look if you're a Spanish Catholic person, you might be like, that was our high point, things were great.
21:59 --> 22:02 [UNKNOWN]: But from the perspective of an English person, it's the inquisition for those people.
22:03 --> 22:14 [UNKNOWN]: We all know that, yeah, sure, some of the people like the Aztecs doing their human sacrifices, I'm not necessarily sad that they didn't make it, but we also know that the inquisition is in the new world, things are going brutal.
22:14 --> 22:20 [UNKNOWN]: And in this moment, Francis Drake with his salient partners, they're just doing trade stuff.
22:21 --> 22:43 [UNKNOWN]: They haven't declared war on anybody as far as I can see and suddenly they're the only survivors of this attack he would have sailed all the way back to England assuming that like his best friend of the world or whatever was dead and he sure he finds out he did survive, but all the other guys didn't you know, so I can see why that would be a real wake up call to you where you're like, you're not a friendly people you can get along with they need to be stopped.
22:43 --> 22:45 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that's a very good point.
22:45 --> 22:48 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and we're going to see how this works out in the story.
22:49 --> 22:50 [UNKNOWN]: We're only on page two.
22:50 --> 22:53 [UNKNOWN]: I think so this is going to keep going for a little bit.
22:54 --> 22:59 [UNKNOWN]: He comes home from this field expedition, but it does catch the attention of Queen Elizabeth the first who is Queen at this time.
23:00 --> 23:06 [UNKNOWN]: She took over from her half sister Mary who you may know by her other name called Bloody Mary.
23:07 --> 23:09 [UNKNOWN]: After Henry D. A.
23:09 --> 23:20 [UNKNOWN]: There was a guy called Edward VI who actually sort of reinforced a Protestant course that Henry put out Then Mary came on the scene and she was a Catholic and she was not having it.
23:20 --> 23:28 [UNKNOWN]: She wanted to turn everything in England back to Catholicism And nearly three hundred people were burned at the state nearly six seeds.
23:28 --> 23:32 [UNKNOWN]: She killed a lot of wonderful great people the one off the top I had diving of is
23:33 --> 23:47 [UNKNOWN]: John Bradford, fantastic creature and man, but there were plenty plenty of others who were also burned at the stake, and the thing is too, this is going to become a recurring theme through the life of England's history, at least for the next 100 and 50 or so years.
23:47 --> 23:52 [UNKNOWN]: this deep-seated fear that like the Catholics will retake over England if we let them.
23:52 --> 24:16 [UNKNOWN]: Everything was, you know, not peaceful, but going to one direction, bloody Mary comes in, kills a bunch of people, tries to force it back in the Catholicism, and even though Queen Elizabeth is now in charge, the fear, and I think actually in some ways, a very justified fear based on the things that happened both with this trans-historic story and other things, that there is like, we had this country, but only if we can keep the Catholics from taking it back over.
24:17 --> 24:18 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, well, I'm talking about that.
24:18 --> 24:20 [UNKNOWN]: That's what's going to happen now.
24:20 --> 24:33 [UNKNOWN]: Like, that is a perfect backdrop, actually, for like the story that's going to happen now, because Queen Elizabeth, the first she was like I said before, she already invested in these slave trading expeditions.
24:33 --> 24:44 [UNKNOWN]: And now, as this has happened, she's like, Francis Drake, I'm going to need you to go back there and you need to get as much intel as you can on the Spanish
24:45 --> 24:49 [UNKNOWN]: And I am going to need you to just make up for your failure.
24:50 --> 24:53 [UNKNOWN]: So, which, like, subtext, make me my money back.
24:54 --> 25:02 [UNKNOWN]: So, Francis Drake in 1572 takes two small ships, crosses the Atlantic, and his goal is to find Spanish silver.
25:03 --> 25:13 [UNKNOWN]: And like we've been saying this like there was so much I didn't know about any of these things that I was reading on and I was researching and this is just one more thing.
25:13 --> 25:24 [UNKNOWN]: So the Spanish are already in a new world, already for like I think 40, 50 years like really well established by now and they are just taking so much valuables from there.
25:24 --> 25:33 [UNKNOWN]: So they're mining silver like in places like modern day Peru and those places and they're walking it down to Panama and from Panama they're shipping it
25:33 --> 25:46 [UNKNOWN]: either east, back to Europe, or west, to the Philippines, to Asia, and the way they actually got their ships in was, and this was new, but I was like, of course, this makes so much sense.
25:47 --> 25:48 [UNKNOWN]: They would just build ships on the other side.
25:49 --> 25:54 [UNKNOWN]: So there was one guy who sailed across the entire continent for an in Magellan.
25:54 --> 25:58 [UNKNOWN]: He was the first guy to do a circumnavigation or his crew was because he died.
25:59 --> 26:01 [UNKNOWN]: I think it was in the Philippines actually, he was killed.
26:02 --> 26:04 [UNKNOWN]: So it didn't make it all the way, but his crew did.
26:04 --> 26:07 [UNKNOWN]: So he was the first, like the crew was the first to do a full lap of the earth.
26:08 --> 26:11 [UNKNOWN]: But it was hard, so they figured it's way easier.
26:11 --> 26:17 [UNKNOWN]: We were already here, we just have our ships on one side and we go to the other side and build ships there and we just keep sailing.
26:18 --> 26:21 [UNKNOWN]: So that's how the Spanish are doing it and they're making old the money.
26:21 --> 26:25 [UNKNOWN]: Like you just already set this, like they're just, they're plucking it dry.
26:25 --> 26:27 [UNKNOWN]: Like they're really going at it.
26:27 --> 26:29 [UNKNOWN]: bringing all the valuables there.
26:29 --> 26:32 [UNKNOWN]: They're really enormous amounts of valuables.
26:33 --> 26:37 [UNKNOWN]: And Francis Drake finds out, of course, because he's there.
26:37 --> 26:38 [UNKNOWN]: He's looking around.
26:38 --> 26:39 [UNKNOWN]: He sees this happening.
26:39 --> 26:44 [UNKNOWN]: He sees the boats going with loaded with silver and gold and everything.
26:45 --> 27:03 [UNKNOWN]: So he tries to take a town, which is now still exists in Panama, called Norma de Dios, and they don't succeed, but they do get away with some of the loot, but then they find out, wait, a town is fortified, so that's kind of hard, you know, there's a lot of people there, what we should do is hit the supply lines.
27:04 --> 27:05 [UNKNOWN]: So what they do is they, uh,
27:06 --> 27:17 [UNKNOWN]: place an ambush they go on foot studying get after ships the anchors ships go on foot into padama and they ambush what is called the meal train meals are like donkeys right?
27:17 --> 27:22 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so so I'm gonna assume it's just a whole row of donkeys with loaded with silver
27:23 --> 27:26 [UNKNOWN]: or it's the people carrying it sometimes could be called a mealturing too, maybe.
27:26 --> 27:29 [UNKNOWN]: But either way, I think you're probably right that's actually the mealturing themselves.
27:30 --> 27:32 [UNKNOWN]: But either way, this honestly, it's so clever.
27:32 --> 27:35 [UNKNOWN]: Like I read that, I like when I read that part of the story, I was like, man, that is so smart.
27:35 --> 27:41 [UNKNOWN]: Instead of trying to like take it when it's in the vault and town, you're taking it while it's just moving through the jungle.
27:41 --> 27:47 [UNKNOWN]: And I really get the impression the Spanish didn't even like consider that this could happen.
27:48 --> 27:50 [UNKNOWN]: Like it was unheard of that an English ship
27:51 --> 28:02 [UNKNOWN]: like out there somewhere, possibly, that you maybe thought, okay, some of the tribes here might get upset with us, but it just seemed like this took them so off guard because they just thought they were perfectly safe on that side of the world.
28:02 --> 28:25 [UNKNOWN]: I feel that it's actually true like even in this time and maybe someone in the comments can correct us and it's bit like 1570s I feel like the Spanish were just doing their own thing like no one was really bothering them Of course, there were a lot of wars going on in Europe Like there were in many conflicts and I think the Spanish were involved in almost all of them But here in the new world they were just having a field day
28:25 --> 28:38 [UNKNOWN]: It would be I think the only thing I can compare it to is it'd be like if you're a bank robber and you see an armored vehicle going by with all the windows down like it's like they just don't even consider that this could be a possibly dangerous spot for them in any way.
28:38 --> 28:40 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so they don't see it coming and.
28:41 --> 28:50 [UNKNOWN]: Drake, they take everything they come away with like tons of silver more than they can carry and now comes an interesting tidbit.
28:51 --> 28:53 [UNKNOWN]: They are rumored because they were being chased by the Spanish.
28:53 --> 28:57 [UNKNOWN]: No, they were kind of mad that their silver was taken and there were soldiers there.
28:57 --> 29:00 [UNKNOWN]: Like it wasn't just like just civilians hanging out.
29:00 --> 29:04 [UNKNOWN]: Like there was a lot of military presence in the new world from the Spanish side.
29:05 --> 29:09 [UNKNOWN]: Um, they chase him down and Drake, they're just, you know, it's too heavy.
29:09 --> 29:13 [UNKNOWN]: They have too much, they have too much silver, so they decide to bury it.
29:14 --> 29:20 [UNKNOWN]: And this is actually the first time that someone of a pirate nature, um, there is treasure.
29:20 --> 29:25 [UNKNOWN]: And this is actually what spawns the legend of pirates bearing their treasure.
29:25 --> 29:25 [UNKNOWN]: So that's kind of cool.
29:25 --> 29:54 [UNKNOWN]: In fact, it's what we saw was corrected, also he created a map to so like this is like all of the stories of pirates and treasure maps originates from this probably actually real story of a pirate who actually made a treasure map to a real treasure which I was like that's so cool I thought for sure that was just you know some fictional embellishment to make their story to make all the pirate story so cool and interesting it's actually fascinating to me that like one of the and he's not the original pirate's pirates call back to like you know
29:55 --> 30:04 [UNKNOWN]: ancient Empire days, but one of the real true like original legendary pirates of the Caribbean age actually started with a treasure map.
30:04 --> 30:05 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so that is really cool.
30:06 --> 30:12 [UNKNOWN]: And the treasure has never been found as far as I could find it in all the available sources.
30:13 --> 30:16 [UNKNOWN]: So if you have some time on your hands and want to go to Panama,
30:17 --> 30:22 [UNKNOWN]: You know, bring a shovel, bring some equipment, and you may find lots of silver.
30:22 --> 30:23 [UNKNOWN]: They didn't bury all the silver.
30:23 --> 30:26 [UNKNOWN]: They were able to bring quite a lot back to England.
30:26 --> 30:30 [UNKNOWN]: And yeah, this was, you know, great success for him.
30:30 --> 30:32 [UNKNOWN]: Only, okay, can I push?
30:33 --> 30:39 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, this is actually not a part of the story I thought I pushed back on, but I'm just linking, you're being chased by Spanish soldiers.
30:39 --> 30:44 [UNKNOWN]: You can't carry this silver, but you have time to dig a hole and bury it.
30:45 --> 30:47 [UNKNOWN]: I'm not saying that's not true.
30:47 --> 30:51 [UNKNOWN]: I'm just saying, huh, you know, like that feels odd.
30:51 --> 30:56 [UNKNOWN]: Well, I mean, and then the Spanish don't notice all these freshly dug holes, like, you know,
30:57 --> 31:13 [UNKNOWN]: come on man let let the myth be a myth I like a good legend I want this I want Drake's treasure to be real but that's as you explained it I'm like I feel like if they're so close behind you can't bother carrying it to the boat you just don't have time to dig a hole and pat it down
31:14 --> 31:17 [UNKNOWN]: Maybe who's who's gonna know it's dropping man.
31:17 --> 31:23 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and then draw a map like very do you feel like counting out the steps Okay, I hope there's a treasure there.
31:23 --> 31:25 [UNKNOWN]: It just I see the wonder like that.
31:25 --> 31:26 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, moving on.
31:26 --> 31:31 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, yeah Anyway, maybe someone in the comments, you know who really studied Drake.
31:31 --> 31:36 [UNKNOWN]: I'm gonna say like what I kill joy that was like we were all on board with treasure and why would you put it
31:37 --> 31:40 [UNKNOWN]: Someone already booked their ticket to Panama with the shell hole in hands.
31:40 --> 31:47 [UNKNOWN]: Like I'm ready and now you're just a little bit of use that information two minutes before the the travel look or whatever a gone through
31:49 --> 31:49 [UNKNOWN]: Oh man.
31:49 --> 31:49 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
31:50 --> 32:03 [UNKNOWN]: Anyway, while Francis Drake is in Panama, finding the muil train and finding his silver, something very pivotal happens as well because they make it across what is called the ismes.
32:03 --> 32:11 [UNKNOWN]: It was a new word for me, but it's a pretty like a very like tiny connection between two greater like land masses.
32:12 --> 32:19 [UNKNOWN]: So the estimates of Panama, he makes it across and he is the first Englishman to lay eyes on the Pacific Ocean.
32:19 --> 32:36 [UNKNOWN]: He apparently from, you know, the story is he climbed to the top of a tree and he could see the enormous body of water and he said, or he, we saw the Almighty God of his goodness to give him life and leave to sail once in an English ship in that sea.
32:36 --> 32:37 [UNKNOWN]: So that is his dream now.
32:37 --> 32:39 [UNKNOWN]: Like he now he's seen the other side.
32:39 --> 32:39 [UNKNOWN]: Like
32:40 --> 32:41 [UNKNOWN]: and that's now his new goal.
32:41 --> 32:51 [UNKNOWN]: Like he wants to be the first English guy to be there and bother this Spanish on that side of the world because that is still his main deal.
32:52 --> 32:58 [UNKNOWN]: However, it's not going to happen at this travel because his boat is on the other side and he doesn't know the way at this point yet.
32:59 --> 33:04 [UNKNOWN]: So he goes back to England, loaded with silver and like he is now solid with the
33:09 --> 33:16 [UNKNOWN]: But something quite unfortunate happens for Francis Drake, not for the world, but Spain and England have come to a truce.
33:17 --> 33:26 [UNKNOWN]: So he comes back, he's been, you know, finding Spanish people, taking their silver, having a great time, comes back home and finds out that, you know, they're not fighting at this time.
33:27 --> 33:31 [UNKNOWN]: So that's a little bit disappointing for Drake.
33:31 --> 33:36 [UNKNOWN]: I can only imagine, because now he can leave right away and start bothering Spanish again.
33:36 --> 33:39 [UNKNOWN]: Because, and this is actually a good thing to explain.
33:40 --> 33:45 [UNKNOWN]: We've been calling him a pirate, and in many sources, they keep calling him a pirate.
33:46 --> 34:03 [UNKNOWN]: But what he actually was like legally in that time was what we call a private tear, because he would receive a letter from the English government, from the Queen saying, hey, I now legally allow you to steal stuff from the Spanish.
34:04 --> 34:09 [UNKNOWN]: which the Spanish will probably like, yeah, no, we don't agree.
34:09 --> 34:18 [UNKNOWN]: We didn't sign his letter, but having that kind of letter actually makes you a private tier instead of a pirate pirates, we're considered more like, you know, we're on our own side.
34:18 --> 34:22 [UNKNOWN]: We take from everyone, the private tier is like, they pick the side, so he's like, the
34:22 --> 34:35 [UNKNOWN]: a pirate on the English side of this, and when he gets done taking his money, he's returning it to Queen Elizabeth and England to give them their fair share because you're allowing me to be docked at home and not go to jail.
34:36 --> 34:38 [UNKNOWN]: I'm giving you your funds.
34:38 --> 34:39 [UNKNOWN]: I'm doing this for you.
34:40 --> 34:50 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, and which I think is an important part of this because at different points, especially in the next part of the story, he won't get massively, I mean, he massive amounts of money in his hands.
34:51 --> 34:58 [UNKNOWN]: If he wanted to be rich beyond his wildest dreams, he could be, and he hands it, he gives it a what, you know, saying like, he doesn't hold on to it.
34:59 --> 35:04 [UNKNOWN]: That's a big difference between him and a regular pirate because a regular pirate gets him out of gold.
35:04 --> 35:08 [UNKNOWN]: The Drake gets his hands on and he's not handing it over to the government for tax purposes,
35:09 --> 35:12 [UNKNOWN]: And it's not like you get it's not that he gives away some of it.
35:12 --> 35:15 [UNKNOWN]: He gives away the bulk of it.
35:15 --> 35:17 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so good to make that distinction.
35:18 --> 35:25 [UNKNOWN]: And so, but now because there's a truce, of course, the Queen won't give him like a new letter and he can go out and bother to Spanish.
35:25 --> 35:40 [UNKNOWN]: At this time, and I wrote in my notes, this is pure, you know, my imagination because Philip II of Spain had reached the truce within Elizabeth and I wrote down maybe because he was busy with something else called the Dutch River, happening in that.
35:40 --> 35:41 [UNKNOWN]: Is that an important story to you?
35:42 --> 35:49 [UNKNOWN]: it's kind of like our foundation story like you have your revolutionary war we have our 80 years of revolting against the Spanish.
35:49 --> 35:57 [UNKNOWN]: So for you it would be like how do you you know when you mentioned earlier how do you guys feel about America do I call you like King Phillips the old King to you is that is how we put it for you guys.
35:57 --> 35:59 [UNKNOWN]: Okay we're gonna drift for a little bit.
35:59 --> 36:01 [UNKNOWN]: I'm sorry to everyone listening.
36:01 --> 36:03 [UNKNOWN]: We're gonna be we're gonna take a little a side of the
36:04 --> 36:23 [UNKNOWN]: This is very interesting, actually, because in our national anthem, which was written at that time, like we have one of the oldest written down national anthem still around, and it was written at that time, it's called Will Helmus, and in the first verse, we actually sing out, so are like, how do you call it like one of our like, like,
36:23 --> 36:28 [UNKNOWN]: founders of the Netherlands or one of our main guys of the time.
36:28 --> 36:31 [UNKNOWN]: His name is William of Orange.
36:31 --> 36:44 [UNKNOWN]: He's the first William of Orange and we take like that's where the orange comes from for the Dutch and all those things and he had a friend who wrote like sort of an anthem for the revolt but it was interesting because he
36:48 --> 36:53 [UNKNOWN]: How do I explain this without showing that I didn't pay attention in history class?
36:54 --> 37:02 [UNKNOWN]: So what happens is he doesn't want to revolt necessarily against his Spanish, but he feels like it's very religiously motivated.
37:02 --> 37:04 [UNKNOWN]: So the Dutch have become Protestants.
37:05 --> 37:06 [UNKNOWN]: Spanish was still Catholic.
37:06 --> 37:17 [UNKNOWN]: They don't like it, but there's some stuff happens, but he's like, no, I still, you know, Spanish king, you've always been so good to me, and I don't want, you know, I actually, I'm very sad that we're fighting.
37:17 --> 37:19 [UNKNOWN]: So in our national anthem, there is a line.
37:21 --> 37:26 [UNKNOWN]: So where it says, I am from German blood, so that's really interesting.
37:26 --> 37:30 [UNKNOWN]: So we sing like, you know, big sport event, all the Dutch people in our own clothes.
37:30 --> 37:32 [UNKNOWN]: We sing, we're from German blood.
37:32 --> 37:35 [UNKNOWN]: and we will always honor the king of Spain.
37:35 --> 37:37 [UNKNOWN]: That's like in our national anthem.
37:37 --> 37:41 [UNKNOWN]: That's gonna be weird when you guys play like, you know, a German or a Spanish team, yeah.
37:41 --> 37:43 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, like, so why are you playing so hard?
37:43 --> 37:45 [UNKNOWN]: Then like, you know, it was just, yeah.
37:45 --> 37:46 [UNKNOWN]: But that is really interesting.
37:47 --> 37:48 [UNKNOWN]: So anyway, so Dr.
37:48 --> 37:51 [UNKNOWN]: Revolt will maybe we'll cover it in in some other episode or whatever.
37:51 --> 37:57 [UNKNOWN]: Maybe I'll get Troy to do like a Revive Thoughts deep dive on it sometime because there's very interesting things happening.
37:57 --> 37:57 [UNKNOWN]: As well.
37:57 --> 38:00 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, we did an episode of Revive Thoughts on a,
38:00 --> 38:05 [UNKNOWN]: Jacob is our minis and it covered a little hair to just a little just a little addition of it.
38:05 --> 38:20 [UNKNOWN]: And I was really fascinated by I think maybe I just missed it in my own history classes, but I think it's a history a lot of us who are from the Netherlands are not very familiar with the very important religious like war that happened in Europe for 80 years that.
38:20 --> 38:27 [UNKNOWN]: It's obviously important to anybody, it's from the Netherlands, but also it's actually just important for church history and understanding so much about what was going on.
38:27 --> 38:38 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, yeah, I mean, if you've ever heard of the Senate of Dort, that is in the Netherlands, city in the Netherlands, and some of the important decisions were made then and stuff put on papers.
38:38 --> 38:42 [UNKNOWN]: So anyway, that's enough drifting for now.
38:42 --> 38:45 [UNKNOWN]: This was happening at the same time that we'll cover it some other time.
38:45 --> 38:53 [UNKNOWN]: With no legal ways of fighting Spaniards, Drake sees it's not the time to go back west and get more silver.
38:54 --> 39:09 [UNKNOWN]: And he falls off the radar for a little bit but then he appears again working for a guy named the Earl of Essex who is just one of the nobles in England and back in the days when you're a noble you're also a military commander pretty much always.
39:10 --> 39:15 [UNKNOWN]: And he takes part in something called the Rathlin massacre.
39:15 --> 39:18 [UNKNOWN]: And this is not a pretty story in July 15th.
39:18 --> 39:21 [UNKNOWN]: You know, any story that has massacre in the name?
39:21 --> 39:26 [UNKNOWN]: It didn't, it's normally not a, you know, like a really fun time.
39:27 --> 39:31 [UNKNOWN]: They don't normally name like a Queens Tea Party, like the massacre in the dining hall or something.
39:32 --> 39:42 [UNKNOWN]: good point yeah okay you know uh let's let's just put it on the language very again I know I can't I can't play that card and I can't do that
39:43 --> 39:44 [UNKNOWN]: their wrath in massacre.
39:44 --> 39:45 [UNKNOWN]: This is a very sad story.
39:45 --> 39:48 [UNKNOWN]: And in my opinion, it doesn't look good on Drake.
39:49 --> 39:55 [UNKNOWN]: And I mean, I don't think this is going to be a very big discussion point between us.
39:55 --> 40:03 [UNKNOWN]: What happens is there's an island of the northern coast of northern coast of Ulster, which is now in northern Ireland.
40:04 --> 40:10 [UNKNOWN]: And there is a families, families of the Irish chieftains of the McDonald clan have fled there.
40:11 --> 40:14 [UNKNOWN]: They were resisting the English England's ones to take Ireland.
40:15 --> 40:17 [UNKNOWN]: Ireland doesn't want to be taken, so there's a war.
40:18 --> 40:20 [UNKNOWN]: And a lot of people fled to this island.
40:20 --> 40:31 [UNKNOWN]: And the Earl of Essex sends two guys, Sir John Norris and Francis Drake there, to take the castle and just to subdue this clan.
40:33 --> 40:41 [UNKNOWN]: They take the castle, hundreds of civilians are in there, and after the defenders surrendered, the English troops kill everyone.
40:41 --> 40:44 [UNKNOWN]: They kill hundreds of people, mostly women and children.
40:45 --> 40:48 [UNKNOWN]: Drake was in charge of blocking off the island, making sure
40:49 --> 41:02 [UNKNOWN]: No reinforcements would come in and no one from the castle would come out and as soon as sort of the the iris soldiers in the castle had surrendered He and his guys everyone goes in and they kill everyone.
41:02 --> 41:07 [UNKNOWN]: There's there's just no way around it The Earl of Essex he is like
41:08 --> 41:15 [UNKNOWN]: Happy there's this is from a letter that he himself wrote, the women and children and others that were found in the island were put to the sword.
41:15 --> 41:18 [UNKNOWN]: The soldiers have not spared any that were found.
41:18 --> 41:26 [UNKNOWN]: Sir John Norris and Master Drake have done their parts very well, and in all things have due to flee obeyed my direction.
41:28 --> 41:42 [UNKNOWN]: And now this is just me speaking for a little bit because it wasn't actually like I couldn't find it as quickly in the sources, but There was again a very clear religious aspect to it because the Irish were Catholic and the English were Protestant and
41:43 --> 41:47 [UNKNOWN]: Well, they didn't like Catholics so close.
41:47 --> 41:51 [UNKNOWN]: So there was more motives than just like we need more land.
41:51 --> 41:54 [UNKNOWN]: We need more like they were definitely a religious aspect here.
41:54 --> 41:56 [UNKNOWN]: And Drake does not like Catholics.
41:56 --> 41:57 [UNKNOWN]: We've established that by now.
41:58 --> 42:02 [UNKNOWN]: And yeah, it's just like I don't know what more to say about the story.
42:02 --> 42:03 [UNKNOWN]: It's in the history.
42:03 --> 42:06 [UNKNOWN]: So we got to tell it and it's just a terrible story.
42:07 --> 42:07 [UNKNOWN]: by far to me.
42:08 --> 42:09 [UNKNOWN]: I think I think of all the parts of this story.
42:09 --> 42:15 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, this is the one, the probably the most against him being a Christian moment.
42:15 --> 42:19 [UNKNOWN]: If I were to say, like, this is the one where I go, I don't know how you do that.
42:19 --> 42:24 [UNKNOWN]: The only way I can maybe try to justify understanding it in my head.
42:25 --> 42:27 [UNKNOWN]: And again, please don't hear this.
42:27 --> 42:28 [UNKNOWN]: I'm excusing it.
42:28 --> 42:32 [UNKNOWN]: I would hope that if I was given this order, I would say no.
42:33 --> 42:51 [UNKNOWN]: But the only thing I think of is your soldier, you're sent to do a job by like the government of your country, the job is this you didn't make the decision to kill these people you are following the order at a time when I don't know how much a soldier can say no.
42:52 --> 42:59 [UNKNOWN]: Like, and that doesn't, again, that doesn't mean that I think I would hope that I would still say, though, and say, this is ridiculous for killing women and children.
42:59 --> 43:03 [UNKNOWN]: They serve neither any military threat nor this is blah, blah, blah, blah.
43:03 --> 43:03 [UNKNOWN]: Right.
43:03 --> 43:10 [UNKNOWN]: But at a time in Europe, I mean, finding people in Europe, killing women and children and villages and stuff this time period is not a hard thing to do.
43:11 --> 43:19 [UNKNOWN]: And I can only think that you're doing what you're told you're not responsible for, you know, you're not the one in your mind.
43:19 --> 43:20 [UNKNOWN]: Maybe you're saying I'm not the one swinging the sword.
43:21 --> 43:22 [UNKNOWN]: I have to do what I'm told.
43:22 --> 43:26 [UNKNOWN]: And even if I didn't swing the sword, there would just be somebody else here swinging this sword.
43:27 --> 43:33 [UNKNOWN]: But I can say that to myself, I still don't think that makes me feel any better.
43:33 --> 43:34 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think that that excuse is it?
43:35 --> 43:37 [UNKNOWN]: That's to say I would hope it actually doesn't excuse it.
43:37 --> 43:42 [UNKNOWN]: But that's in my mind trying to think of like, is there a way that a Christian can rationalize this?
43:42 --> 43:52 [UNKNOWN]: And I think that would be it, especially because back in those days, there is such a heightened respect and trust following King and the Queen's orders.
43:53 --> 43:55 [UNKNOWN]: that is just to me very, very, very foreign.
43:56 --> 43:57 [UNKNOWN]: I don't understand that.
43:57 --> 43:59 [UNKNOWN]: To me, a king or queen tells me to do something tomorrow.
43:59 --> 44:04 [UNKNOWN]: It's very easy for me to say no, because I don't live in a world where kings and queens make any difference for stars.
44:04 --> 44:05 [UNKNOWN]: I run America.
44:05 --> 44:12 [UNKNOWN]: We don't have a king or queen, but even if we do, like even the countries that still do have kings or queens, they have no real.
44:12 --> 44:14 [UNKNOWN]: like, you don't have to do what they say.
44:14 --> 44:30 [UNKNOWN]: We're talking about a time when you do have to do what they say and they are seen as actual real leading powers that matter that the king in a sense is actually more important than you so when the king does something bad, but you're doing it, you're just doing your extension.
44:30 --> 44:30 [UNKNOWN]: Does that make sense?
44:32 --> 44:45 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it does make sense and I think it's actually kind of come up more in this story later on and actually I think it will be a point where I'll probably have a bit of a talk about it because it's it's actually part of that I struggle with in this story and it's going to come up.
44:45 --> 44:52 [UNKNOWN]: So for now let's continue with this story because now we really start to get a get a move on.
44:59 --> 45:00 [UNKNOWN]: just to kind of give us his age.
45:00 --> 45:11 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I think, yeah, somewhere in his deafness 30s because, yeah, I'm, okay, I'm not going to do the math because then I could say because he died in the year, you're such and such and I don't know.
45:11 --> 45:17 [UNKNOWN]: Now, we already know, I mean, we're 500 years or so he's, he's, yeah, he's that guy's.
45:17 --> 45:18 [UNKNOWN]: It's all right, if you were hoping to meet him.
45:19 --> 45:20 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no, it's over.
45:20 --> 45:25 [UNKNOWN]: Um, 1577, Francis is chosen to lead an expedition.
45:27 --> 45:37 [UNKNOWN]: on paper, or officially the objective is go to Alexandria, which is in Egypt, in the Mediterranean, and find favorable trade there, and that's the mission, and they go with five ships.
45:39 --> 45:50 [UNKNOWN]: And by the time they get to the point where they should take a left turn into the Mediterranean, they keep on sailing, and they do not go past Gibraltar and all those places in and towards
45:57 --> 46:02 [UNKNOWN]: to cause maximum damage to the Spaniards with a official approval from the Queen herself.
46:03 --> 46:15 [UNKNOWN]: He is allowed to benefit himself and the Queen as much as possible, and there's a quote here because the Queen said she would gladly be revanged on the King of Spain for a diverse injuries that she had received.
46:16 --> 46:19 [UNKNOWN]: Drake is in, like he hears, you know, maximum damage.
46:19 --> 46:24 [UNKNOWN]: Spaniards in one sentence and he's like, you got me, I mean, that's, that's what I want to be doing.
46:25 --> 46:34 [UNKNOWN]: So, uh, this was actually the first time that he got to meet the Queen face to face as he got his, uh, his orders here and he is, he's all in.
46:34 --> 46:38 [UNKNOWN]: Like, he has now only one thing on his mind and you will see how that's going to work out.
46:39 --> 46:46 [UNKNOWN]: So there he goes, state sponsored piracy, private team, like we said before, bring riches to the kingdom of England.
46:46 --> 46:51 [UNKNOWN]: So they keep traveling and then they reach the Brazilian coast.
46:51 --> 46:55 [UNKNOWN]: And now something happens that is going to be very interesting in the rest of the story.
46:55 --> 46:57 [UNKNOWN]: So I keep saying that story guys.
46:57 --> 46:59 [UNKNOWN]: It is just a fascinating story.
46:59 --> 47:20 [UNKNOWN]: There's going to be a lot of me saying and now it gets interesting and now it gets even more interesting and now we're just reaching levels of Interesting that we didn't think we're possible on this this podcast of Christian or not, but it's going to happen today I'm new to knee happens like you can't have a good sea story with a potential me to knee let me put it in the right words because
47:21 --> 47:29 [UNKNOWN]: Again, different sources, different stories, but Drake, like some of the men weren't in on the plan.
47:30 --> 47:33 [UNKNOWN]: So they thought we're going to Egypt, we're going to have, you know, good time.
47:33 --> 47:38 [UNKNOWN]: Going back and forth to Egypt, maybe like a one year ordeal, maybe even if it's that.
47:38 --> 47:44 [UNKNOWN]: But now suddenly they're, you know, in the new world and by now Drake has told them off the plans and they're like,
47:47 --> 47:52 [UNKNOWN]: So let me ask you, Mark, do you really think that some of these guys didn't know?
47:52 --> 47:57 [UNKNOWN]: And that cause you can say, well, yeah, of course they didn't know Drake didn't tell them and I guess they wouldn't have.
47:57 --> 48:04 [UNKNOWN]: But like, didn't they look around the boat and go, boy, we sure have a lot of cannonballs and guns to go visit Egypt with.
48:05 --> 48:27 [UNKNOWN]: Just just going into the Mediterranean like you're now in Catholic territory like that is that is Spain that is France you have Italy like growing itself is you are correct like so we'd need to be I just feel like man sure did pack a lot of food for this tradition like you know it just feels to me like you know a we the Francis Drake that Francis Drake is taking us to Egypt the side of the world he's never visited
48:29 --> 48:30 [UNKNOWN]: I'm not saying they didn't know.
48:30 --> 48:33 [UNKNOWN]: They probably didn't know all the accounts say they didn't.
48:34 --> 48:52 [UNKNOWN]: I just can't help but wonder how you didn't at least suspect that maybe this fun siege journey trip with a little trade partner in Egypt might have actually been a completely different voyage when you get on board the pirate ship full of cannon balls and guns with enough food to get you to the moon and you go this looks normal.
48:55 --> 48:58 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, we can't, we can't say for sure.
48:58 --> 48:59 [UNKNOWN]: Sure, we cannot.
48:59 --> 49:16 [UNKNOWN]: What happens at least people are unhappy and Drake he smells mutiny and he's like, nope, that's not gonna happen here because he's been around the block he's been to places and he knows if there's one thing you don't want when you have like 80 dudes on a small ship, you don't want descent.
49:16 --> 49:20 [UNKNOWN]: So actually, his whole fleet is five ships, 200 people.
49:20 --> 49:22 [UNKNOWN]: Like you don't want people working against.
49:25 --> 49:42 [UNKNOWN]: I mean you have to realize like it's 200 people on five boats in the middle of the ocean like that's that's the world to you at that point like that's everyone That you really have to deal with because no one else can influence you so you got to you know Put the hammer down and and if you're like a captain of the fleet
49:43 --> 49:44 [UNKNOWN]: you got to take action.
49:44 --> 49:47 [UNKNOWN]: So that is what Drake does in any business venture.
49:47 --> 49:56 [UNKNOWN]: If you have two injured people going to one direction and one guy starts to try to lead the business and then opposite direction then what the CEO says very likely he's going to get fired, right?
49:57 --> 50:07 [UNKNOWN]: I mean this isn't a hard isn't like a super hard thing to imagine but the problem is when your five boats and see I mean I guess it's supposed to be a drop-off in an island but there's really not a getting fired here.
50:08 --> 50:14 [UNKNOWN]: and anybody who's leading the community or who's at least whispering the mutiny, it's not like they don't know what can happen.
50:15 --> 50:21 [UNKNOWN]: They're very aware that the consequences of what they're whispering and saying, if it goes south, it's serdef.
50:22 --> 50:22 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
50:22 --> 50:24 [UNKNOWN]: That's my thought is like, you knew what could happen if you did this.
50:25 --> 50:40 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, someone's going to get it like either it's the current captain or it's like the main opposition leader like you can just be like, okay, well, you stay on that boat and I'll say on this boat and we just don't talk anymore for the rest of the expedition that's not going to work out.
50:40 --> 50:42 [UNKNOWN]: that's not what's going to happen here.
50:42 --> 50:58 [UNKNOWN]: So they come to a place and this is actually almost like kind of poetic by Drake where someone mentioned before a Ferdinand Magellan had a mutiny of his own as he was circumnavigating the world and they they they to care of business as well.
50:59 --> 51:03 [UNKNOWN]: So Magellan killed the mutiniers and one of them was actually put on a cross.
51:04 --> 51:11 [UNKNOWN]: And it is said that they were like within like the set like they could see the cross and this is where Drake is like guys stopped the boat.
51:12 --> 51:25 [UNKNOWN]: We got to deal with an issue here and they have a trial and they have an execution and the name of the leader of the mutiny or like the suspected mutiny was a man called Thomas Doughty.
51:26 --> 51:28 [UNKNOWN]: He was accused of all sorts of things like if you.
51:29 --> 51:46 [UNKNOWN]: If I would have kept reading, I would have probably found more things that he was suspected of according to some sources, but at least it was like new to me, the sand witchcraft was among them, which is, you know, I feel, I mean it's a 16th century, if you're not being accused of witchcraft when someone's against you, you're just not doing it right.
51:46 --> 51:50 [UNKNOWN]: We really don't understand which craft the same way sailors didn't the 1500s.
51:50 --> 51:57 [UNKNOWN]: And the way, the reason I say that is I, so when we did, we did an episode on revive thoughts, a deep dive on the Salem witch trials.
51:57 --> 52:02 [UNKNOWN]: And I was just trying to get an understanding of like sources, primary documents that talk about witches.
52:03 --> 52:09 [UNKNOWN]: And I found a sailing like law from the 1630s and it literally was just like, I went to this port.
52:10 --> 52:11 [UNKNOWN]: I went to that port.
52:11 --> 52:17 [UNKNOWN]: I went to this port I stopped because I realized I'd picked up a witch at this port and dropped her off on an island.
52:17 --> 52:18 [UNKNOWN]: I went to this port.
52:18 --> 52:19 [UNKNOWN]: I went to this.
52:19 --> 52:20 [UNKNOWN]: And you're like, wait, what?
52:20 --> 52:22 [UNKNOWN]: Like, witches are so backwards.
52:22 --> 52:26 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like, if I told you, like, yeah, I had a great time.
52:26 --> 52:27 [UNKNOWN]: We visited some friends.
52:27 --> 52:28 [UNKNOWN]: I picked up a witch.
52:28 --> 52:29 [UNKNOWN]: I had to drop her off somewhere.
52:29 --> 52:31 [UNKNOWN]: You'd be like, wait, that's the only part of the story I care about anymore.
52:32 --> 52:42 [UNKNOWN]: So like we don't understand which is in which craft that's the same way that they do it's such to them it's just a basic log entry that you wouldn't even think to elaborate on
52:43 --> 52:46 [UNKNOWN]: But with that said, I don't know that Thomas, is it doubty here?
52:47 --> 52:48 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think he's a witch, you know.
52:49 --> 52:51 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, we don't know, we weren't there.
52:52 --> 52:58 [UNKNOWN]: And it was actually really hard to find the full complaint or full charge that was brought against him.
52:58 --> 53:03 [UNKNOWN]: But at least, yeah, doubty isn't going to make it.
53:03 --> 53:04 [UNKNOWN]: He gets executed.
53:05 --> 53:07 [UNKNOWN]: And there are two things I want to say about this.
53:08 --> 53:15 [UNKNOWN]: One is that a couple of sources actually said like, this is actually kind of weird because Daudi was, they call it a gentleman.
53:15 --> 53:19 [UNKNOWN]: He was just like someone not of the nobility.
53:19 --> 53:20 [UNKNOWN]: It wasn't the sur.
53:20 --> 53:23 [UNKNOWN]: He wasn't knighted, but he was like really like upper class kind of guy.
53:23 --> 53:27 [UNKNOWN]: And they had like a group of upper class people with them on the boats.
53:27 --> 53:29 [UNKNOWN]: It was just normal to bring a couple along.
53:29 --> 53:57 [UNKNOWN]: Which that makes it like if they okay, that's probably what they thought they were going to Egypt to trade bringing some upper class upper elite people would make sense and they also make sense of some of the people that would have turned around and they're like, wait, we're pirating off, you know, what like this is not what I signed up for I could see how it and that really adds credibility to them not knowing and I could see why this guy would have kind of been like, okay, I came to trade with Egypt, I wanted to see some pyramid to make some money.
53:57 --> 53:58 [UNKNOWN]: What on earth happened here?
53:58 --> 54:16 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so yeah, that's a good thing, but at least what I said here is Drake probably didn't even have like the legal authority to do this, like to do a trial to execute someone, but he does it anyway, and this is something that will come up later and this sort of brings this whole
54:17 --> 54:38 [UNKNOWN]: Actually, I think if it maybe there's a sort of the foundation or some of the the origin stories of these laws like we know very well living a broad like when you're in an airplane the pilot he's like, you know, he's he's the guy that makes the rules on the airplane if someone if something happens he's the guy in charge and this is what happens here on the boat as well like.
54:38 --> 54:44 [UNKNOWN]: Drake says like, hey, we're on the boat, there's not a English judge within a couple thousand miles from us.
54:45 --> 54:47 [UNKNOWN]: So I'm the guy setting rules here.
54:47 --> 54:48 [UNKNOWN]: I'm the leader.
54:48 --> 54:55 [UNKNOWN]: I say, this is how it is, if I want to trial, I will have a trial, if I want to have an execution, I will have an execution.
54:55 --> 55:01 [UNKNOWN]: So this sort of, for the first time, this sort of becomes more clear that that this
55:07 --> 55:11 [UNKNOWN]: just the supreme commander of the fleet and he makes the decision.
55:11 --> 55:12 [UNKNOWN]: So that's what happens here.
55:12 --> 55:20 [UNKNOWN]: But at this time, this was not already like set into any legal things.
55:20 --> 55:24 [UNKNOWN]: So his authority is questioned for doing this.
55:24 --> 55:25 [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, I mean, who's going to stop him?
55:26 --> 55:26 [UNKNOWN]: He's out there.
55:26 --> 55:28 [UNKNOWN]: There's no one near him to stop him.
55:29 --> 55:30 [UNKNOWN]: And then another thing happens.
55:30 --> 55:34 [UNKNOWN]: And this is from the book called The World and Compass, which I quoted from right at the start.
55:35 --> 55:51 [UNKNOWN]: And I'm just going to read it because it just feels so random to me, so after trial, the verdict is out, doubting knows it's over, and then apparently Thomas doubting requested to have communion together with Francis Drake.
55:52 --> 55:54 [UNKNOWN]: And I'm going to read the quote here from the book.
55:54 --> 56:02 [UNKNOWN]: They both received the commune together as two brethren in Christ, whom the frailty of the flesh had made to differ after which embracing each other.
56:02 --> 56:06 [UNKNOWN]: They took their leave as loving friends in perfect charity.
56:06 --> 56:12 [UNKNOWN]: And so with a humble quietness, E that is cloudy, laid his head to the block.
56:14 --> 56:15 [UNKNOWN]: And I don't know what to think of this one.
56:16 --> 56:20 [UNKNOWN]: Well, and I believe this is the world encompass was written by Sir Francis Drake's nephew.
56:23 --> 56:25 [UNKNOWN]: I hope it went that way.
56:25 --> 56:28 [UNKNOWN]: I hope that surveillance is Drake's nephew got the story right.
56:29 --> 56:48 [UNKNOWN]: I don't want to say that he's wrong because you know what he probably heard it from his uncle and it maybe maybe but boy I don't know yeah well I mean and putting the head on the block meant there was also an axe that went to the block and head went off and it was actually uh this was in the documentary that we both watched they said like because he was a gentleman
56:55 --> 57:02 [UNKNOWN]: There goes Thomas Dowdy, and he will, uh, or his name and his sort of legacy, we'll come back in a little bit.
57:03 --> 57:10 [UNKNOWN]: But, um, by now two of the ships that they have brought with them, they were just supply ships, so they are abandoned like they've run out of supplies, they don't need them anymore.
57:11 --> 57:29 [UNKNOWN]: and they keep going and they keep going south until they reach a sea strait called the strait of Magellan which is if you look it up on a map is actually before you like go really around South America there's actually just like sort of a way in between the islands that are there.
57:29 --> 57:33 [UNKNOWN]: It is a dangerous place, there is winds coming from every single direction and
57:34 --> 57:37 [UNKNOWN]: It's not an easy thing to go to.
57:37 --> 57:38 [UNKNOWN]: It takes them 16 days.
57:38 --> 57:41 [UNKNOWN]: They lose one of the three boats that they had.
57:41 --> 57:46 [UNKNOWN]: And the other boat gets sort of lost, gets separated, and it's like, yeah, we're going back.
57:47 --> 57:50 [UNKNOWN]: So he ends up in the Pacific Ocean.
57:50 --> 57:53 [UNKNOWN]: This is a great success for Francis Drake.
57:53 --> 57:56 [UNKNOWN]: He besought the Lord as we heard before in the quote.
57:56 --> 57:58 [UNKNOWN]: And now he's there.
57:58 --> 58:01 [UNKNOWN]: He's in the Pacific Ocean with just one ship.
58:01 --> 58:05 [UNKNOWN]: And I think by now, he only has like 80 men left of the 200 that he set out with.
58:05 --> 58:08 [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, they've lost some along the way.
58:09 --> 58:10 [UNKNOWN]: And they're in the Pacific Ocean.
58:10 --> 58:17 [UNKNOWN]: And this is why I have to be that this is the all of this journey is just to get him from England to the Pacific Ocean.
58:17 --> 58:18 [UNKNOWN]: It starts with vibrates.
58:19 --> 58:20 [UNKNOWN]: He's down to one boat.
58:20 --> 58:21 [UNKNOWN]: He's less than half as men.
58:21 --> 58:22 [UNKNOWN]: He had to stop immunity.
58:23 --> 58:28 [UNKNOWN]: He's only just now arriving on like we do not really appreciate today.
58:28 --> 58:40 [UNKNOWN]: just how incredibly and immensely difficult travel and stuff like that was back then I mean you can see on this side of it yeah this is why this Spanish ruled all of this because who else could really pull it off during that time.
58:40 --> 58:49 [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely yeah and also just for time like the timeframe this took a year almost a year before they got there so it's now August of 1578
58:51 --> 58:56 [UNKNOWN]: and they're in the Pacific and yeah, but how are they going to do what they want?
58:56 --> 59:00 [UNKNOWN]: How are they going to do maximum damage with only the one boat they have left?
59:01 --> 59:03 [UNKNOWN]: Well, leave that to Francis Drake.
59:04 --> 59:06 [UNKNOWN]: He is having the time of his life.
59:06 --> 59:11 [UNKNOWN]: This is, you know, this is me embellishing a little bit for a fun podcast, but he is
59:12 --> 59:18 [UNKNOWN]: He's going at it, you know, who is not having the time of their lives, the Spanish on the Pacific coastline.
59:19 --> 59:21 [UNKNOWN]: They expected nothing.
59:21 --> 59:26 [UNKNOWN]: They did not see this coming and we said this before like they just built the boats on this side.
59:27 --> 59:29 [UNKNOWN]: They're not like there's no fortresses.
59:29 --> 59:34 [UNKNOWN]: There's nothing really there on that side of the continent because there's no one else.
59:34 --> 59:35 [UNKNOWN]: There's no threat.
59:35 --> 59:37 [UNKNOWN]: And suddenly, who shows up?
59:38 --> 59:45 [UNKNOWN]: a guy with a personal fendetta against Spain and against the Catholics and he is just ready.
59:45 --> 01:00:01 [UNKNOWN]: He goes from town to town, he takes pretty much everything that isn't nailed to the floor and maybe even that like he is just looting everything and he just goes up the coast like or does now like Peru, he gets to Panama.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:23 [UNKNOWN]: a Mexico and the this is again where there's different sources because I saw some sources that said, but interestingly, there were no Spanish casualties like there was no really like algorithms finding people dying, but then other sources said, they were burning churches, that in pre, they were torturing captives to reveal hidden treasure.
01:00:24 --> 01:00:40 [UNKNOWN]: again, like who's to say what was true, but at least what we know for sure was true, Francis Drake was just, you know, stuffing his own boat with gold and jewels and everything that he could find from this side of the new world, from the Pacific side of the Spanish Empire here.
01:00:41 --> 01:00:43 [UNKNOWN]: If you're a bank robber, you just robbed Fort Knox.
01:00:43 --> 01:00:47 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, this is the ultimate payload of a group of people.
01:00:48 --> 01:00:49 [UNKNOWN]: And I don't know if you saw this.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:54 [UNKNOWN]: So we have here, like, as he arrived, it was probably considered today, California.
01:00:55 --> 01:00:58 [UNKNOWN]: He claims this land for England.
01:00:59 --> 01:01:05 [UNKNOWN]: Like, it has a name, Nova, I will be on, which I don't fully know what's inside of that.
01:01:05 --> 01:01:09 [UNKNOWN]: So it's Latin, and Albion was actually the Latin name for England.
01:01:10 --> 01:01:12 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, so did you, oh, that's interesting.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:14 [UNKNOWN]: So the original New England is actually over on California.
01:01:15 --> 01:01:16 [UNKNOWN]: So there you go.
01:01:16 --> 01:01:19 [UNKNOWN]: But did you read the ceremony that happened there?
01:01:19 --> 01:01:21 [UNKNOWN]: Because that is a weird story.
01:01:21 --> 01:01:35 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, so the way I read it and you correct me if I get this wrong, he basically is kind of claiming this land, but the tribes are native people there start to declare him as like a god.
01:01:36 --> 01:01:41 [UNKNOWN]: And he goes and it's like almost like from the book of Acts where he's like, no, no, no, I'm not a god, but he's really not how to direct them.
01:01:41 --> 01:01:56 [UNKNOWN]: So he's like, don't worship me in any like points at the sky in the like bowels down and points to the sky is like, you get it like you get it that's that's the god of there somewhere and then he like leaves him with like I want to say like a picture of the queen of England is like, and I claim this land for England.
01:01:56 --> 01:01:58 [UNKNOWN]: everything clear, great.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:01 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, and he moves on.
01:02:01 --> 01:02:03 [UNKNOWN]: And he was like, I, you know, did you guys get it?
01:02:03 --> 01:02:12 [UNKNOWN]: That we, we, we, and I say, so if we were trying to say Frank's is straight in the missionary, terrible, missionary or not, he did not understand what he was doing.
01:02:13 --> 01:02:15 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think that necessarily makes him, you know,
01:02:16 --> 01:02:17 [UNKNOWN]: not a Christian or any stretch of the minute.
01:02:17 --> 01:02:19 [UNKNOWN]: I think he thought he was doing a good job there.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:27 [UNKNOWN]: If you don't know the language and you just have a bunch of people bowing down to you, I don't know what more you can do with the mirror like this.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:32 [UNKNOWN]: But I also told the I set up a quick picture of Queen of England and I'm like, this is for late on case it was unclear.
01:02:32 --> 01:02:34 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no, but it's it's it's an interesting.
01:02:34 --> 01:02:42 [UNKNOWN]: So I think there is some parts there in San Francisco that still carry his name like a Drake Island or something like a D, a Drake bay, maybe I don't know.
01:02:43 --> 01:03:00 [UNKNOWN]: But yeah, and he doesn't stay there even though he claims it as England, he I don't like how do you substantiate that claim like you go back home You're like oh yeah, there's this place like I can tell you where it is like I could give you the directions and it's like ours Yes, I know yeah, it's like I'll be you know I'm saying in the natives bow to me.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:01 [UNKNOWN]: It was a whole thing and we cleared it up.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:06 [UNKNOWN]: I guess like America left the flag on the moon So it's like that mean the entire moon is America's
01:03:07 --> 01:03:09 [UNKNOWN]: Until another flag gets up there, I guess so, right?
01:03:09 --> 01:03:10 [UNKNOWN]: Like, I mean, what do you do?
01:03:11 --> 01:03:13 [UNKNOWN]: You know, there's a joke, okay.
01:03:13 --> 01:03:14 [UNKNOWN]: Show my European side again.
01:03:14 --> 01:03:16 [UNKNOWN]: We make fun of the French sometimes.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:28 [UNKNOWN]: There's a joke, like, because I think, because the radiation of the sun, like the American flag, that they left up there, is now a white flag, so not the people think the French were there, it's not, that's hilarious, actually.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:33 [UNKNOWN]: That's a horrible joke, that's a joke, we have, sorry, to the French listeners, if we have any,
01:03:35 --> 01:03:36 [UNKNOWN]: Let's continue.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:56 [UNKNOWN]: Drake, he's before he actually gets to California, he has his biggest loot, he captures a ship called Nuestra Senora de la Concepción, which actually, I think if my Spanish is any good means like our Lady of the Concepción, like so named after
01:03:57 --> 01:04:07 [UNKNOWN]: Mary, I can only assume very Catholic and he takes it, he takes old gold and it's like worth millions and millions in today's money if you would translate it.
01:04:08 --> 01:04:15 [UNKNOWN]: So he's he's doing great by July of 1579, so just take note like he entered the Pacific August of
01:04:16 --> 01:04:21 [UNKNOWN]: 1578, and he leaves the Pacific, or he starts to cross the Pacific by 1579.
01:04:21 --> 01:04:23 [UNKNOWN]: So he spent a year.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:30 [UNKNOWN]: Like he's a year, he's just going up and down the coast, looting his Spanish, and they're trying to chase him, but they can't, like he's just the one ship.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:33 [UNKNOWN]: And like it's hard to find ship in the ocean.
01:04:33 --> 01:04:42 [UNKNOWN]: whether he's really just one ship, he's doing a great job, but you also have to give him credit, I mean, how many other sailors could survive just going up and down the coast of a land?
01:04:43 --> 01:05:01 [UNKNOWN]: They don't know, like it is not a friendly territory, it is a completely different continent, with completely different weather than what you're used to, and he not only survives, but he thrives over there, and then manages to pull off this next part, which is something not many people know one basically
01:05:02 --> 01:05:12 [UNKNOWN]: even Magellan died doing what he's about to do after he's already spent a year, you know, just messing around like just legitimately having goose on the Spanish for a while.
01:05:12 --> 01:05:12 [UNKNOWN]: Yep.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:13 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:14 [UNKNOWN]: So he continues.
01:05:14 --> 01:05:16 [UNKNOWN]: He reaches the Philippines.
01:05:16 --> 01:05:18 [UNKNOWN]: It takes them 68 days to cross the Pacific.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:20 [UNKNOWN]: Quick, quick side note.
01:05:20 --> 01:05:23 [UNKNOWN]: Actually, I was reading about Magellan's expedition as well.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:26 [UNKNOWN]: and they had no idea what the world looked like.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:32 [UNKNOWN]: So by the time he got into the Pacific, they actually thought it would take them like three or four days to get to the Philippines.
01:05:33 --> 01:05:34 [UNKNOWN]: Oh, my boat.
01:05:34 --> 01:05:35 [UNKNOWN]: It took them three or four months.
01:05:36 --> 01:05:36 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:05:36 --> 01:05:37 [UNKNOWN]: A lot of people died.
01:05:37 --> 01:05:39 [UNKNOWN]: Like it wasn't not a fun journey.
01:05:40 --> 01:05:44 [UNKNOWN]: But by now, they knew that there was a route they knew it was going to take them a while.
01:05:45 --> 01:05:53 [UNKNOWN]: And this is actually a good point you just made there because Drake actually does get credit for keeping a lot of his crew alive.
01:05:53 --> 01:06:01 [UNKNOWN]: Like in a little bit he's going to make it home with 56 of his 80 people that he entered the Pacific with still alive.
01:06:01 --> 01:06:05 [UNKNOWN]: And like for those days, like today, if you're going to school trip, you know, you say,
01:06:05 --> 01:06:07 [UNKNOWN]: Oh, I'm sorry, Miss Principal.
01:06:07 --> 01:06:08 [UNKNOWN]: We left with 80 students.
01:06:08 --> 01:06:09 [UNKNOWN]: We came back with 56.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:12 [UNKNOWN]: I think that's overall a success story.
01:06:12 --> 01:06:16 [UNKNOWN]: Let's welcome, I say, the tiger part of the zoo was pretty fascinating.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:19 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, but in those days, it was a good score.
01:06:20 --> 01:06:21 [UNKNOWN]: Like it was considered a good score.
01:06:21 --> 01:06:23 [UNKNOWN]: I think Magellan came back with like, or he didn't even make it back.
01:06:23 --> 01:06:25 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, Magellan doesn't make it back.
01:06:25 --> 01:06:27 [UNKNOWN]: And it's really does feel unfair.
01:06:27 --> 01:06:29 [UNKNOWN]: Like it does actually feel like it shouldn't be his name.
01:06:29 --> 01:06:31 [UNKNOWN]: I'll like we say, oh, Magellan first got caught.
01:06:31 --> 01:06:36 [UNKNOWN]: It really feels like his first mate, the guy or whoever it was who took over, actually finished it.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:37 [UNKNOWN]: He's the guy who actually did it.
01:06:38 --> 01:06:39 [UNKNOWN]: That is a good point.
01:06:39 --> 01:06:49 [UNKNOWN]: So we should rename the Magellan straight to whoever that guy was maybe had a bad name And that's why I was like, you know, it's like, oh, it's really confusing custom guns on months or somebody is just a PR.
01:06:49 --> 01:06:50 [UNKNOWN]: It's a PR thing.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:52 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, so but so Drake does well.
01:06:52 --> 01:06:58 [UNKNOWN]: He does well in this and and they make it to the Philippines and then they make it to
01:06:59 --> 01:07:03 [UNKNOWN]: The Maluku Islands, which is actually getting close to where we live, so this is kind of fun.
01:07:04 --> 01:07:08 [UNKNOWN]: He is in the Maluku Islands, modern day Indonesia, if you have ever seen a map of Indonesia.
01:07:09 --> 01:07:12 [UNKNOWN]: It's a little bit towards the east, north-east of Indonesia.
01:07:12 --> 01:07:18 [UNKNOWN]: The way I explain it to people in America, and I know this may sound maybe it may be so many in America, because we're like, very upset.
01:07:19 --> 01:07:24 [UNKNOWN]: I say, you know that place in the game of risk that you have to have to hold Australia or you put all your soldiers.
01:07:25 --> 01:07:27 [UNKNOWN]: That's Indonesia.
01:07:27 --> 01:07:28 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, okay.
01:07:28 --> 01:07:29 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so that's where he is.
01:07:30 --> 01:07:36 [UNKNOWN]: He hangs out with the king a little bit, that's some trade, making friends along the way.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:43 [UNKNOWN]: And now this is, okay, let me say, I think now we're getting to the most interesting of interesting parts in the story.
01:07:44 --> 01:07:49 [UNKNOWN]: They, uh, like he's doing great on the open ocean, like there's not a lot that can happen.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:50 [UNKNOWN]: You can hit a well.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:52 [UNKNOWN]: Maybe get caught in the storm.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:53 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know, but you see those coming.
01:07:53 --> 01:07:54 [UNKNOWN]: I can only assume.
01:07:55 --> 01:08:01 [UNKNOWN]: But now there are in Indonesia, the, uh, land of like 17 islands, uh, or more even.
01:08:02 --> 01:08:05 [UNKNOWN]: And there is reefs and islands and shallow waters everywhere.
01:08:05 --> 01:08:07 [UNKNOWN]: And they get stuck.
01:08:08 --> 01:08:17 [UNKNOWN]: And this brings a new character to the story, which is a man called Francis Fletcher, who is the Chaplin on board of Francis Drinks.
01:08:17 --> 01:08:19 [UNKNOWN]: Which, extradition hired?
01:08:19 --> 01:08:21 [UNKNOWN]: He wanted this guy on the boat with him.
01:08:22 --> 01:08:31 [UNKNOWN]: And I do think we need to take just one second to explain why it's so bad to get stuck, because we don't, you know, when we're driving on the road, we just stop in the gas, we run out of gas, we can read, you know, call somebody to go.
01:08:31 --> 01:08:33 [UNKNOWN]: Back in those days, getting stuck is death.
01:08:34 --> 01:08:38 [UNKNOWN]: and your boat can't move, you can't get food, you're done, that's it.
01:08:39 --> 01:08:45 [UNKNOWN]: Or at the best, you get off, and now you're on that island till somebody else comes by, which in the middle of Indonesia, nobody else is coming by.
01:08:46 --> 01:08:48 [UNKNOWN]: And these are not friendly islands.
01:08:48 --> 01:08:54 [UNKNOWN]: Like Hudson Taylor described hundreds of years later, passing by a very similar area.
01:08:54 --> 01:09:02 [UNKNOWN]: And his boat kept getting stuck in the pilot, or the captain, who didn't even believe in God, was basically like your missionary, start praying, because we're gonna
01:09:02 --> 01:09:19 [UNKNOWN]: we're going to die because in at one point he was like he went downstairs and prayed because the captain was so freaked out because he could see the natives on the island, starting fires because the plan was once that boat of food gets over here, we're going to eat the people on that
01:09:20 --> 01:09:23 [UNKNOWN]: That's the kind of area that this boat is getting stuck in.
01:09:24 --> 01:09:30 [UNKNOWN]: So when we say he got stuck in this becomes a big deal, we need to understand it's not like, oh no, the tires flat.
01:09:30 --> 01:09:36 [UNKNOWN]: It's oh no, we might be seeing people making a big old barbecue over there, but we're the dinner.
01:09:36 --> 01:09:40 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so, and I think they are seeing this in the same way.
01:09:40 --> 01:09:43 [UNKNOWN]: They're like, we're in big, big trouble now.
01:09:43 --> 01:09:45 [UNKNOWN]: Like this is, this is not good.
01:09:45 --> 01:10:04 [UNKNOWN]: And because Fletcher, the chaplain, he goes up and he starts preaching and he starts preaching that this is actually the wrath of God or unjustly executing Thomas Dowdy two years earlier on the Brazilian coast, still in the Atlantic.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:10 [UNKNOWN]: and he brings it back and he's like, hey, come on guys, this is what happened.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:11 [UNKNOWN]: Our captain here, Francis Drake.
01:10:11 --> 01:10:27 [UNKNOWN]: He, well, he doesn't actually say like it's actually said like he will not directly accuse him, but he says as much in his sermon, I was looking for this sermon because I was saying like if you ever want to fund every five thoughts episode like this sermon would be, it would be quite simply.
01:10:27 --> 01:10:27 [UNKNOWN]: It would be quite a sermon.
01:10:28 --> 01:10:29 [UNKNOWN]: I don't feel like it would be quite
01:10:33 --> 01:10:34 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, okay.
01:10:34 --> 01:10:35 [UNKNOWN]: Well, we couldn't find it.
01:10:35 --> 01:10:37 [UNKNOWN]: It's it's been lost to the ages.
01:10:37 --> 01:10:42 [UNKNOWN]: Unfortunately, but there's excerpts out there that have been put in the world encompassed.
01:10:42 --> 01:10:44 [UNKNOWN]: So we have some parts that I can quote for you.
01:10:45 --> 01:10:51 [UNKNOWN]: So he says, um, this is God's wrath for killing Boudy or for executing him unjustly.
01:10:51 --> 01:10:55 [UNKNOWN]: And, um, well, I'm going to read some some quotes here from the world encompassed.
01:10:56 --> 01:11:17 [UNKNOWN]: Master French's lecture, Preacher, taking occasion by the example of Master Dowdy his punishment, to preach a sermon upon the place, did invade greatly against Sir Francis Drake, charging him with the crime of blood, and with bringing of God's judgment upon the voice, he took for his text, so this was like his sermon text, okay, I'm going to preach,
01:11:23 --> 01:11:31 [UNKNOWN]: and he applied the same holy and directly against the general, which is Francis Drake, as though he had been guilty of willful murder.
01:11:32 --> 01:11:46 [UNKNOWN]: The voice of God himself, the sword of the Lord against the whole company, was come against him and the continual cross, which could not be taken from them except the fault and cost, their wrath removed from amongst them.
01:11:46 --> 01:11:47 [UNKNOWN]: So he's pretty
01:11:51 --> 01:12:09 [UNKNOWN]: executed a guy, so got to get rid of him if we want to get unstuck and and then the continues friends, his flexors, it kind of praises doubt his good qualities and repeats his protestations of innocence and while not condemning Drake, outright leaves readers to draw their own conclusions on his conduct.
01:12:11 --> 01:12:20 [UNKNOWN]: And I mean, people that have now listened to like the give or take one hour that we're into this episode, they're gonna see that this is not gonna end well.
01:12:20 --> 01:12:24 [UNKNOWN]: This is not gonna be like and then they took communion and everything was right in the world.
01:12:26 --> 01:12:36 [UNKNOWN]: Drake is recorded standing up, actually drawing his gun or like his pistol like the one shot, you know, pistol.
01:12:36 --> 01:12:39 [UNKNOWN]: And he says, French is Fletcher.
01:12:39 --> 01:12:41 [UNKNOWN]: I charge the in the name of God.
01:12:41 --> 01:12:48 [UNKNOWN]: And as that will answer at the dreadful day of judgment to preach no more, that will art the cause of this are present misfortune.
01:12:49 --> 01:12:52 [UNKNOWN]: And then he continues to read like the entire indictment
01:12:55 --> 01:12:57 [UNKNOWN]: and then he does something new.
01:12:58 --> 01:13:00 [UNKNOWN]: He excommunicates Frances Fletcher.
01:13:01 --> 01:13:16 [UNKNOWN]: If there were doubts before if he was allowed to execute someone on his ship, there should definitely be some doubts whether or not he could actually excommunicate someone, which wasn't even a thing within the process in terms of the far as I know.
01:13:17 --> 01:13:19 [UNKNOWN]: Although if you had to ask me if I'm on the ship,
01:13:20 --> 01:13:23 [UNKNOWN]: And I got to choose between excommunication or execution.
01:13:23 --> 01:13:24 [UNKNOWN]: This is the better.
01:13:24 --> 01:13:28 [UNKNOWN]: I'm probably going to choose, you know, look, man, I don't think you're the authority to do that.
01:13:28 --> 01:13:29 [UNKNOWN]: It's not what I'm going to say.
01:13:29 --> 01:13:30 [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to say fair enough.
01:13:30 --> 01:13:31 [UNKNOWN]: You don't fair enough.
01:13:31 --> 01:13:33 [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, odd rats.
01:13:33 --> 01:13:34 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, okay.
01:13:34 --> 01:13:35 [UNKNOWN]: Good point.
01:13:35 --> 01:13:37 [UNKNOWN]: But this is, yeah, this is.
01:13:38 --> 01:13:41 [UNKNOWN]: So Drake, he is absolutely mad.
01:13:41 --> 01:13:46 [UNKNOWN]: He excommunicates Fletcher and he, and I quote again from the role and compassed.
01:13:46 --> 01:14:11 [UNKNOWN]: Good man, seek not thus to justify daughter's loot practices and unjust dealings by laying the fault and gild upon me, but if thou thinkest that God has suffered this great trouble to come unto us, for some great sin committed by us, that sin, no doubt, is the great fault that thou has committed by this your undue to full behavior, in seeking by your servants to cast a scandal upon me.
01:14:12 --> 01:14:15 [UNKNOWN]: to the other overthrow of the service and the voyage.
01:14:15 --> 01:14:17 [UNKNOWN]: I will leave thee to the great mercy of God.
01:14:17 --> 01:14:20 [UNKNOWN]: But for me, you get no mercy.
01:14:22 --> 01:14:23 [UNKNOWN]: So here's the thing.
01:14:24 --> 01:14:25 [UNKNOWN]: I feel very mixed on this.
01:14:26 --> 01:14:28 [UNKNOWN]: On the one hand, you were at sea.
01:14:28 --> 01:14:31 [UNKNOWN]: You are also in a sense, a war vessel.
01:14:31 --> 01:14:35 [UNKNOWN]: You are literally being used to fight in military operations.
01:14:35 --> 01:14:43 [UNKNOWN]: And if you are in military operations and you have, I mean, who thinks that in the middle of World War II of a chaplain got up and started preaching?
01:14:43 --> 01:14:46 [UNKNOWN]: Like, hey, we're being a little too rough on these guys, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:14:46 --> 01:14:51 [UNKNOWN]: Especially in a dire such, you know, your boat runs around the Japanese could be around.
01:14:51 --> 01:14:54 [UNKNOWN]: And you're literally, because they're not that far from the Philippines, which is Spanish territory.
01:14:55 --> 01:15:01 [UNKNOWN]: Do you really think that any general is going to let that guy give sermons preaching like this is all your fault.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:01 [UNKNOWN]: We're bad people.
01:15:01 --> 01:15:02 [UNKNOWN]: Of course not, right?
01:15:03 --> 01:15:04 [UNKNOWN]: Had the same time though.
01:15:06 --> 01:15:08 [UNKNOWN]: If you're the chaplain, you sign up to go to Egypt.
01:15:09 --> 01:15:10 [UNKNOWN]: Like, you know what I say?
01:15:11 --> 01:15:14 [UNKNOWN]: You never agreed for any of this and if you're like, well, look at how much money we made.
01:15:16 --> 01:15:19 [UNKNOWN]: And acknowledging that this is probably like let's give him some credit.
01:15:19 --> 01:15:21 [UNKNOWN]: I hope that he's a good chaplain who loves the Lord.
01:15:22 --> 01:15:23 [UNKNOWN]: He didn't want the money.
01:15:23 --> 01:15:25 [UNKNOWN]: Like he didn't come on this trip to make a bunch of money.
01:15:25 --> 01:15:26 [UNKNOWN]: He came to be a chaplain.
01:15:26 --> 01:15:27 [UNKNOWN]: Maybe make some money.
01:15:27 --> 01:15:29 [UNKNOWN]: But he never signed up for any of this.
01:15:29 --> 01:15:33 [UNKNOWN]: So how, I feel really, I do.
01:15:33 --> 01:15:37 [UNKNOWN]: I get, it's like I really do understand exactly both perspectives.
01:15:37 --> 01:15:41 [UNKNOWN]: If I was that chaplain, I would also probably be pretty mad at Francis Drake.
01:15:41 --> 01:15:45 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know that I blame him for the wind not blowing, but Ian superstitious times.
01:15:45 --> 01:15:48 [UNKNOWN]: They did kind of do that kind of thing on the flip side of it.
01:15:48 --> 01:15:54 [UNKNOWN]: If I'm for answers right, I don't know that I would do deal with this chaplain and any other just I don't know that I have the power next to give you a kick somebody.
01:15:54 --> 01:15:58 [UNKNOWN]: But I also would kind of understand like we're in a bad situation.
01:15:58 --> 01:16:01 [UNKNOWN]: Again, we maybe we can see some data fires getting ready.
01:16:01 --> 01:16:03 [UNKNOWN]: This is not the time.
01:16:03 --> 01:16:06 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, somebody preaching a hellfire and it's all our fault.
01:16:06 --> 01:16:08 [UNKNOWN]: Like this is not what the morale needs.
01:16:09 --> 01:16:09 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:16:10 --> 01:16:11 [UNKNOWN]: And I see your point.
01:16:12 --> 01:16:12 [UNKNOWN]: I see your point.
01:16:13 --> 01:16:14 [UNKNOWN]: Drake is not done yet, though.
01:16:14 --> 01:16:15 [UNKNOWN]: He keeps going.
01:16:15 --> 01:16:18 [UNKNOWN]: So now comes the official, you know, final words.
01:16:19 --> 01:16:24 [UNKNOWN]: Francis Fletcher, I do hear excommunicate the out of the church of God and the fellowship.
01:16:24 --> 01:16:33 [UNKNOWN]: I charts the in the name of God that that will come not forward of that cabin nor come before the mast for if thou dust, I will costy to be hanged.
01:16:34 --> 01:16:51 [UNKNOWN]: So he's excommunicated and pretty much like if he gets out of his cabin and you know goes to the other part of the ship where he's not allowed he will be executed after all and then he is bound to the hatch cover or chain to the main hatch cover and there is a sign put upon in
01:16:56 --> 01:16:58 [UNKNOWN]: and my old English is it good?
01:16:58 --> 01:17:02 [UNKNOWN]: So I don't know how sick a burned that is or I feel like it's got to be good.
01:17:02 --> 01:17:03 [UNKNOWN]: The false is named that live it.
01:17:03 --> 01:17:06 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I again, I never King James myself.
01:17:07 --> 01:17:11 [UNKNOWN]: But if I saw somebody with a sign wrapped around this, has false this name that live with.
01:17:11 --> 01:17:13 [UNKNOWN]: I would think, you got him pretty good there.
01:17:13 --> 01:17:28 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so yeah, Fletcher out of the picture, Drake then grabs the Bible, he takes the communion, chalice, and he performs the rest of the service, pretty much making himself not just the captain of the ship, but now also making himself the spiritual authority on the ship.
01:17:29 --> 01:17:31 [UNKNOWN]: So, interesting things are happening.
01:17:32 --> 01:17:40 [UNKNOWN]: They continue their journeys because they do eventually get loose and actually read in one source that they did this because they threw overboard some of their cannons.
01:17:41 --> 01:17:43 [UNKNOWN]: Because they had been finding Spanish.
01:17:43 --> 01:17:44 [UNKNOWN]: They were done with that.
01:17:44 --> 01:17:45 [UNKNOWN]: They now just want to get home.
01:17:45 --> 01:17:48 [UNKNOWN]: So, we're, you know, silver gold cannons.
01:17:49 --> 01:17:50 [UNKNOWN]: See, okay, let's get rid of the cannons.
01:17:51 --> 01:18:01 [UNKNOWN]: So he gets rid of the cannons and they continue to journey east to actually make a stop in a town called Cheetah chop, which is on Java, which is our island's what two and a half to three hours away from us.
01:18:02 --> 01:18:12 [UNKNOWN]: I think it's actually fourish, but it's like on the side of us, like it's it's we should have said it and you'll be like, hey, did you guys know resting stop of surferances straight over here everybody?
01:18:12 --> 01:18:14 [UNKNOWN]: How you know where we're going to find the museum?
01:18:15 --> 01:18:16 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, well, we can try.
01:18:16 --> 01:18:17 [UNKNOWN]: We can try.
01:18:17 --> 01:18:18 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know that.
01:18:18 --> 01:18:20 [UNKNOWN]: We should record it this episode from there.
01:18:20 --> 01:18:23 [UNKNOWN]: You know, missed opportunity.
01:18:23 --> 01:18:27 [UNKNOWN]: Well, you know, let's just, you know, call the day and just continue there.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:27 [UNKNOWN]: No, we're not.
01:18:27 --> 01:18:32 [UNKNOWN]: We're going to continue because Francis Drake makes it home.
01:18:32 --> 01:18:37 [UNKNOWN]: 56 of his man's still alive, which like we said is a good score for the time.
01:18:38 --> 01:18:41 [UNKNOWN]: And Queen Elizabeth is still in charge like you're gone for three years.
01:18:41 --> 01:18:45 [UNKNOWN]: You could come back and it could be a Catholic king or something like Everything could be different.
01:18:45 --> 01:18:47 [UNKNOWN]: Yep, luckily for Drake.
01:18:47 --> 01:18:51 [UNKNOWN]: No Queen Elizabeth is there and he's happy You're gonna use it.
01:18:51 --> 01:18:53 [UNKNOWN]: Queen Elizabeth might be Catholic.
01:18:53 --> 01:18:57 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, the way things go back then like it really could be a different world That is true has this true.
01:18:57 --> 01:18:59 [UNKNOWN]: That's actually very interesting like imagine you're like
01:19:00 --> 01:19:07 [UNKNOWN]: looting and rating, you know, the Pacific and you're taking a picture every is married to this fish king and like with the with the prints on the way.
01:19:07 --> 01:19:11 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, like it sounds wild, but that's certainly not outside of the realm of possibilities.
01:19:11 --> 01:19:13 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no, I think that is actually very true.
01:19:14 --> 01:19:15 [UNKNOWN]: But that's not what happens.
01:19:15 --> 01:19:16 [UNKNOWN]: She's there.
01:19:16 --> 01:19:16 [UNKNOWN]: And
01:19:17 --> 01:19:21 [UNKNOWN]: He comes and, you know, he is just set like his fortune is made.
01:19:21 --> 01:19:22 [UNKNOWN]: His fame is made.
01:19:22 --> 01:19:24 [UNKNOWN]: He has circumnavigated the world.
01:19:24 --> 01:19:27 [UNKNOWN]: He's brought back enormous amounts of loot.
01:19:27 --> 01:19:33 [UNKNOWN]: He has brought like a special jewel for the queen and the queen actually makes like a special diamond for him called the Drake diamond.
01:19:33 --> 01:19:34 [UNKNOWN]: You can look it up.
01:19:34 --> 01:19:42 [UNKNOWN]: It's like a very famous thing and you see it from now on and is like picture or paintings you'll see him wearing like a fancy necklace with a diamond on it and
01:19:43 --> 01:19:50 [UNKNOWN]: as a sort of reward, he gets knighted by the queen, and he becomes the mayor of Plymouth.
01:19:51 --> 01:19:59 [UNKNOWN]: So recall for those that were with us in a hurrigo, Plymouth was where he lived, where he started the journey, and now he's the mayor of the place.
01:20:00 --> 01:20:01 [UNKNOWN]: It does, it does a good job.
01:20:02 --> 01:20:03 [UNKNOWN]: It does a good job of being the mayor of Plymouth.
01:20:04 --> 01:20:05 [UNKNOWN]: He improves like the water situation.
01:20:06 --> 01:20:11 [UNKNOWN]: There's a whole thing that he actually used for like 300 years to have like a good freshwater supply in Plymouth.
01:20:11 --> 01:20:14 [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, good job, Francis Drake.
01:20:14 --> 01:20:15 [UNKNOWN]: I do want to make a clarify.
01:20:15 --> 01:20:20 [UNKNOWN]: If you Google Drake Diamond, it will bring up Drake the rapper wearing a diamond.
01:20:20 --> 01:20:23 [UNKNOWN]: So let's just make sure you put a Francis in front of that.
01:20:23 --> 01:20:28 [UNKNOWN]: So for all of our Googlers out there or people who still, yeah, just one of those.
01:20:30 --> 01:20:32 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so good good correction to me.
01:20:32 --> 01:20:33 [UNKNOWN]: It's called the Drake Jewel.
01:20:34 --> 01:20:34 [UNKNOWN]: Oh, sorry.
01:20:34 --> 01:20:35 [UNKNOWN]: That is my bad.
01:20:36 --> 01:20:40 [UNKNOWN]: Is this as life Doing comments like we're even commenting on ourselves.
01:20:40 --> 01:20:41 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, doing life.
01:20:41 --> 01:20:42 [UNKNOWN]: Oh, you have beautiful reactions.
01:20:43 --> 01:20:46 [UNKNOWN]: Much prettier and oh and I'll and quite frankly a lot better than what Drake the rapper was wearing.
01:20:46 --> 01:20:49 [UNKNOWN]: So I think personally that when I would rather have this on the Drake Jewel.
01:20:49 --> 01:20:50 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, the Drake Jewel.
01:20:51 --> 01:21:01 [UNKNOWN]: Sorry for those that started Googling as soon as I mentioned it, and now only are now getting the rectification of our mistake, we apologize.
01:21:02 --> 01:21:02 [UNKNOWN]: He's the mayor of Plymouth.
01:21:03 --> 01:21:08 [UNKNOWN]: He's doing a good job, but again, different sources, different opinions.
01:21:11 --> 01:21:14 [UNKNOWN]: From most accounts, the nobility isn't super happy with Drake.
01:21:14 --> 01:21:16 [UNKNOWN]: Like he's like a commoner,
01:21:16 --> 01:21:30 [UNKNOWN]: who is, you know, he's a pirate, he's looting, he's not, he hasn't come by his wealth in honest ways, which I mean, if we're going to be judging by that standard, who really did in that time, but you know, we don't know.
01:21:31 --> 01:21:40 [UNKNOWN]: But they don't like him, he even has to like get like a fancy house from self called the Buckland Abbey through like an intermediary because like the noble people
01:21:45 --> 01:21:46 [UNKNOWN]: but the queen likes him.
01:21:46 --> 01:21:57 [UNKNOWN]: So he's in with the queen, so that's good, but the rest of the ability, yeah, a little bit like split on on Francis Drake, but I mean the queen is on his side, so that's all that matters.
01:21:57 --> 01:22:00 [UNKNOWN]: And in the year 1585,
01:22:02 --> 01:22:25 [UNKNOWN]: he gets 25 ships to once more do as much damage as possible is what I read in one quote to the Spanish colonies in the Americas so he goes across the ocean again he crosses the Atlantic and he goes to actually first the Cape Verde Islands which are off the coast of Africa tries to take some cities there are plunders things and he does and he crosses over
01:22:30 --> 01:22:32 [UNKNOWN]: same Augustine in Florida.
01:22:32 --> 01:22:35 [UNKNOWN]: I grew down in no like I grew up down the road from St. Augustine.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:36 [UNKNOWN]: That is so close.
01:22:36 --> 01:22:43 [UNKNOWN]: Jacksonville is next door to St. Augustine and officially it's how I grew up in like literally got like incorporated while I was living there.
01:22:44 --> 01:22:47 [UNKNOWN]: So we've got on the St. Augustine fort super cool fort like 500 years old which.
01:22:48 --> 01:22:49 [UNKNOWN]: to America.
01:22:49 --> 01:22:51 [UNKNOWN]: It's like the oldest standing thing in America.
01:22:52 --> 01:22:52 [UNKNOWN]: So that's pretty rad.
01:22:53 --> 01:22:55 [UNKNOWN]: And so I enjoyed that area.
01:22:55 --> 01:23:04 [UNKNOWN]: And I actually, on so I do feel like I have some vague memory in the back of my head way back into my head of like them being like Francis Drake, the pirate came through here.
01:23:04 --> 01:23:07 [UNKNOWN]: I'm so mad that because they were always trying to incorporate pirates and stories by the pirates story.
01:23:08 --> 01:23:08 [UNKNOWN]: Actually,
01:23:09 --> 01:23:36 [UNKNOWN]: Sands on his head is the Huguenons tried to live over like when they fled France, they tried to set up a fort over in Jacksonville, which again right next to St. Augustine, the Catholics saw that and went and burnt down their fort killed everybody except for one guy who got away and that one guy who got away ended up becoming a pirate became like a really solid pirate came back and burnt like one of the like other forts of St. Augustine down as like revenge basically.
01:23:36 --> 01:23:37 [UNKNOWN]: So pretty cool.
01:23:37 --> 01:23:39 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, weird story, but pretty cool there.
01:23:40 --> 01:23:43 [UNKNOWN]: And again, I'm just hearing other episode IDs like we got to cover this guy.
01:23:43 --> 01:23:44 [UNKNOWN]: That's the thing.
01:23:44 --> 01:23:46 [UNKNOWN]: There's not a lot more to it than that.
01:23:46 --> 01:23:47 [UNKNOWN]: I just really think that story is pretty cool.
01:23:48 --> 01:23:50 [UNKNOWN]: And I was like, wow, what a what a fun twist.
01:23:50 --> 01:23:54 [UNKNOWN]: You thought you got him, but like 10 years later, he shows up and is like, take that.
01:23:54 --> 01:23:58 [UNKNOWN]: So I was excited when I was when we were doing the research.
01:23:58 --> 01:24:00 [UNKNOWN]: I was like, say it Augustine gets some mention.
01:24:00 --> 01:24:03 [UNKNOWN]: And you'll notice it's St. Augustine, not St. Augustine.
01:24:04 --> 01:24:05 [UNKNOWN]: Is that, is that a thing?
01:24:05 --> 01:24:14 [UNKNOWN]: Oh yeah, in America, I think it comes from Britain where a lot of them will say Augustine instead of Augustine, but I have a firm Augustine.
01:24:15 --> 01:24:15 [UNKNOWN]: That makes sense.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:16 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, sorry.
01:24:16 --> 01:24:20 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, I would know, like, inductu, it's like Alfistines.
01:24:20 --> 01:24:24 [UNKNOWN]: So that's already different, like, we keep the us in there, like the more Latin name.
01:24:25 --> 01:24:26 [UNKNOWN]: I can make a whole case for it.
01:24:26 --> 01:24:28 [UNKNOWN]: We don't call them constant ton.
01:24:28 --> 01:24:31 [UNKNOWN]: We don't call them, you know, it's Augustine.
01:24:31 --> 01:24:32 [UNKNOWN]: It's Constantine.
01:24:32 --> 01:24:34 [UNKNOWN]: Like all the Valentine is a little weird.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:34 [UNKNOWN]: I can't give you that.
01:24:34 --> 01:24:36 [UNKNOWN]: But then again, it's really like valentine.
01:24:36 --> 01:24:38 [UNKNOWN]: But nobody's calling them valentine.
01:24:38 --> 01:24:39 [UNKNOWN]: You know what I'm saying?
01:24:39 --> 01:24:40 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know where they got off on.
01:24:40 --> 01:24:46 [UNKNOWN]: But I do, I did do, this comes up on a rife thoughts a lot because Augustine has been on their future to a lot.
01:24:46 --> 01:24:48 [UNKNOWN]: And we did do like a whole Google research on it.
01:24:48 --> 01:24:51 [UNKNOWN]: And it is like, I think the British are the ones who came up with the Augustine.
01:24:51 --> 01:24:54 [UNKNOWN]: And it's the American way is more Augustine, so.
01:24:54 --> 01:24:57 [UNKNOWN]: OK, well, I'm on the American side then for Augustine.
01:24:57 --> 01:25:00 [UNKNOWN]: The same with St. Augustine, where Francis Drake was.
01:25:01 --> 01:25:08 [UNKNOWN]: Apparently, probably trying to destroy the prequel forth that you saw, evidently didn't succeed, but he still looted the city.
01:25:09 --> 01:25:13 [UNKNOWN]: And goes back, brings more wealth to the English.
01:25:13 --> 01:25:15 [UNKNOWN]: And now, you get to a part of the story.
01:25:15 --> 01:25:20 [UNKNOWN]: And I know Troy is really excited about him, because we both had reached research.
01:25:20 --> 01:25:23 [UNKNOWN]: But for some reason, we ended up reading different sources.
01:25:23 --> 01:25:26 [UNKNOWN]: And I wrote most of the script, but then Troy, today, was really digging in as well.
01:25:26 --> 01:25:28 [UNKNOWN]: And he's like, that's the one I want to talk about.
01:25:28 --> 01:25:31 [UNKNOWN]: So we're going to talk about the Spanish Armada.
01:25:31 --> 01:25:39 [UNKNOWN]: look I'm not going to like just play by play what happens here like I'm not a fleet naval expert and I don't even know how I would do that on a video podcast slash podcast.
01:25:39 --> 01:25:46 [UNKNOWN]: If you're listening to this at the gym or on your travels or in a walk, which is where I would listen to a good podcast doing the dishes.
01:25:47 --> 01:25:54 [UNKNOWN]: Me painting an able picture is not going to matter and the boat went left and then right in the port side and the starboard you can't see that on screen doesn't matter.
01:25:55 --> 01:26:09 [UNKNOWN]: But what I can say is this, the Spanish were given permission by the Pope to take over England, like legitimately, hey, England's in rebellion against the Catholic Church, go take the thing that clean Elizabeth, and all of the English are secretly fearful of.
01:26:09 --> 01:26:11 [UNKNOWN]: They have straight permission to go do this now.
01:26:11 --> 01:26:12 [UNKNOWN]: You can do this.
01:26:12 --> 01:26:12 [UNKNOWN]: And
01:26:13 --> 01:26:31 [UNKNOWN]: They gather a something like a hundred plus boats to go do this and the plan is to meet with the Duke of Parma, which is in Flanders, he's also Catholic and with these two armies combined, they'll cross the English channel land and they had mapped it out they believe they would take eight days to walk.
01:26:32 --> 01:26:41 [UNKNOWN]: two London, Conquer London, and once you Conquer London made London Catholic, it would may take time, but it would just be time, eventually England would fall.
01:26:42 --> 01:26:43 [UNKNOWN]: Now, would that actually happen?
01:26:43 --> 01:26:51 [UNKNOWN]: Would the English rally in overthrow the Spanish Catholic attempt probably, but it would certainly be a battle.
01:26:51 --> 01:26:53 [UNKNOWN]: It would certainly change history.
01:26:53 --> 01:27:00 [UNKNOWN]: And England would be getting dragged into the same giant conflicts that over in Germany, the 40 years of war is happening, over in the Netherlands.
01:27:02 --> 01:27:12 [UNKNOWN]: England has kind of keeps their powder clean, they kind of manage to survive and not get directly involved in a land war where their peasants are getting killed because of the English channel.
01:27:13 --> 01:27:17 [UNKNOWN]: But this was the attempt by the Catholic Church and by Spain to undo that.
01:27:17 --> 01:27:25 [UNKNOWN]: Well, their boats are ready and right as they're getting ready to take off Francis Drake with his little private tier group comes up.
01:27:26 --> 01:27:38 [UNKNOWN]: uses these fireboats just damages 30 of the 100 ships wipe some out and goes along his way destroys a few spots across Spain and heads on out.
01:27:38 --> 01:27:45 [UNKNOWN]: If your France is straight, whose life goal is to cause damage to Spanish, this is your ultimate gleeful moment, your sinking Spanish boats
01:27:46 --> 01:28:07 [UNKNOWN]: right outside of Spain that were meant to harminglands and he even gives it a name so it has been named cinching the king of Spain's beard yeah so he's like burning the beard of the king of Spain like that's that's great this is his ultimate this is his ultimate payback for what happened to all his men all those many decades ago like this is the moment he's been waiting for in this this absolutely messes everything up
01:28:07 --> 01:28:16 [UNKNOWN]: So now the Duke who had that army waiting over in flanders to cross with them, he doesn't know us, you can't communicate well because France is in between you.
01:28:16 --> 01:28:21 [UNKNOWN]: And so like messages are going very slowly, but he now has to wait with his army to cross over England later.
01:28:22 --> 01:28:24 [UNKNOWN]: The King has to rebuild boats and get things ready.
01:28:25 --> 01:28:29 [UNKNOWN]: It takes another year before the Spanish Armada is ready to try this again.
01:28:30 --> 01:28:33 [UNKNOWN]: Well, again, the English now know they're doing this, they've been building up in
01:28:36 --> 01:28:40 [UNKNOWN]: the food supplies that they had prepared all went bad.
01:28:40 --> 01:28:43 [UNKNOWN]: So then they had a completely reset the food supplies.
01:28:43 --> 01:28:46 [UNKNOWN]: All these soldiers have been waiting there for a year.
01:28:46 --> 01:28:51 [UNKNOWN]: Well, a plague kind of thing starts going around in a bunch of them gets sick and start dying.
01:28:51 --> 01:28:54 [UNKNOWN]: They were already a year ago, but after a full year of waiting,
01:28:55 --> 01:28:56 [UNKNOWN]: they try again.
01:28:56 --> 01:29:06 [UNKNOWN]: And when they try again, surferances Drake and a couple other guys, one of them being Hawkins, they come together and they fight this big battle.
01:29:06 --> 01:29:13 [UNKNOWN]: The Spanish Armada tries to meet up with a Duke of Parma, but this guy is like, I'm not putting any of my men on the bow until I'm sure you're here.
01:29:13 --> 01:29:17 [UNKNOWN]: Well, at that point when they're here and they're like, let's come together to cross the English channel.
01:29:18 --> 01:29:19 [UNKNOWN]: The Duke of Parma's men are ready.
01:29:19 --> 01:29:20 [UNKNOWN]: So then by the time they are ready,
01:29:21 --> 01:29:26 [UNKNOWN]: The Spanish fleet gets kind of pushed off into the North Sea by the currents and winds there.
01:29:26 --> 01:29:28 [UNKNOWN]: Nobody's prepared everything's this organized.
01:29:28 --> 01:29:32 [UNKNOWN]: Well, that might have happened even if France's Drake hadn't got involved.
01:29:32 --> 01:29:39 [UNKNOWN]: But it was very clear everything was organized the first time and it really seems like France's Drake's burning their ships just completely messed everything up.
01:29:40 --> 01:29:46 [UNKNOWN]: When they have been able to succeed landing and getting all their soldiers and taking over England, it's a long shot.
01:29:46 --> 01:29:46 [UNKNOWN]: But also,
01:29:47 --> 01:29:48 [UNKNOWN]: They had a plan.
01:29:48 --> 01:29:49 [UNKNOWN]: They had the manpower.
01:29:49 --> 01:29:52 [UNKNOWN]: It would have been a really tough battle.
01:29:53 --> 01:29:56 [UNKNOWN]: And we'll never know because Drake gets in there and completely messes everything up.
01:29:57 --> 01:30:03 [UNKNOWN]: And then when the actual armada does show up a year later, he and his these boats do the job that needs to be done.
01:30:03 --> 01:30:04 [UNKNOWN]: They keep them from landing.
01:30:04 --> 01:30:05 [UNKNOWN]: They keep them from meeting up.
01:30:05 --> 01:30:07 [UNKNOWN]: They keep them from forming the force.
01:30:07 --> 01:30:22 [UNKNOWN]: This Spanish Armada will be forced to go all the way around England and Ireland to come back to Spain, and they lose devastating numbers of people, not because they fight their way there, but because they're kind of being chased by the English while they go, they can't land, they can't re-supply.
01:30:23 --> 01:30:33 [UNKNOWN]: People are sick, and they end up losing, I think, far more people just storms in a lack of food and the sicknesses that are going around than they ever did in battle, but it's just a complete
01:30:37 --> 01:31:02 [UNKNOWN]: Now the flip side after that, the queen of England does give Francis Drake permission to kind of have his own they call it the counter our modda where he sales down the England are to Spain unlike in the case of Spanish he does land, but him and his armies we won't go into like a full detail here because to be honest, I don't fully understand what they were doing, but they wander all over the place they don't manage to take like any of the towns they set out for, they keep getting run around.
01:31:03 --> 01:31:04 [UNKNOWN]: It just they are not able to do a good job back.
01:31:05 --> 01:31:08 [UNKNOWN]: So unlike the Spanish, they do land, but it's not successful.
01:31:08 --> 01:31:13 [UNKNOWN]: Nobody considered it like, and actually it's kind of interesting because He didn't have the money to do this.
01:31:13 --> 01:31:18 [UNKNOWN]: So he had everybody putting investment in almost like a stock company or like a gamble like
01:31:18 --> 01:31:34 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, like the Queen of England put 20 pounds in and like six chips in in this group and they're all investing basically like I'm it didn't be 80 pounds of investment between the Queen of England and some different lords and nobles and businessmen and when he comes back the reward for their investment is 30 pounds.
01:31:35 --> 01:31:55 [UNKNOWN]: And that's not making your money back for every two dollars you put in you're getting one dollar back that's not good and the thing is it's also just weird that this is being talked about this way like we're talking about rating houses and villages and killing people as an investment like what am I going to get my money back on this.
01:31:55 --> 01:32:13 [UNKNOWN]: So the counter Armada does not, is not his shining moment, but it really doesn't matter in my opinion, because the destruction of the original Armada is so sound and such a perfect victory for England that you don't really need to win the second one as much, because at this point you already did what you need to do.
01:32:14 --> 01:32:15 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that that is true.
01:32:15 --> 01:32:32 [UNKNOWN]: It is also an interesting thing because they actually sort of like try to kick Spain while they were down like they like they were trying to find the boats that were being repaired and just like destroyed in one so for all like beyond repair and it does feel like a bit of an overreach like it feels like they didn't need to do that.
01:32:33 --> 01:32:39 [UNKNOWN]: And even at one point Drake actually gets so frustrated it seems like with just not.
01:32:39 --> 01:32:44 [UNKNOWN]: being successful in this that they do decide to just burn a random town to the ground.
01:32:44 --> 01:32:52 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, losing hundreds of people along the way somehow because this wasn't even like a military time, but somehow like it still goes so bad or people.
01:32:52 --> 01:32:55 [UNKNOWN]: I looked at that too, and from my perspective.
01:32:55 --> 01:33:00 [UNKNOWN]: It just seemed like the town they wanted to take was in dish, like they wanted to rate and loot it.
01:33:00 --> 01:33:01 [UNKNOWN]: They thought there'd be stuff there.
01:33:01 --> 01:33:02 [UNKNOWN]: Nobody's there, everyone ran away.
01:33:03 --> 01:33:05 [UNKNOWN]: And so it's like they sent it on fire just kind of out of frustration.
01:33:06 --> 01:33:11 [UNKNOWN]: Well, you sent a giant bonfire while all these spated soldiers are combing the countryside looking for you.
01:33:11 --> 01:33:12 [UNKNOWN]: Now they know where you are.
01:33:13 --> 01:33:15 [UNKNOWN]: And that's kind of what I thought, like I'm like, wait a like a signal.
01:33:15 --> 01:33:17 [UNKNOWN]: We're over here and we're angry.
01:33:18 --> 01:33:44 [UNKNOWN]: So it doesn't go well, like we said, like the investment isn't made back and the estimated casualties range between 8 to as much as 20 debt, what was supposed to be like a very victorious moment of putting the final nail in the coffin of the Spanish and just really you know, their whole armata, like after this, it will never consider taking over England again, and it just does not go well.
01:33:44 --> 01:33:47 [UNKNOWN]: Drake actually gets accused of mishandling his command.
01:33:48 --> 01:33:56 [UNKNOWN]: He gets away with it, but his reputation is bruised, it's hard, and he doesn't receive another command until 1595.
01:33:58 --> 01:34:01 [UNKNOWN]: So by now, he is 55-ish, probably.
01:34:02 --> 01:34:07 [UNKNOWN]: And then once more, he receives a command, the queen wants more trust in with ships.
01:34:07 --> 01:34:10 [UNKNOWN]: But the story starts to fizzle out a little bit, like as much as like the
01:34:16 --> 01:34:34 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, it just it doesn't have the rogue ending that it might deserve, but it has the very realistic ending that is actually very common for the time because they go they cross the Atlantic Ocean once more and they try to take San Juan on Puerto Rico, they don't succeed.
01:34:34 --> 01:34:41 [UNKNOWN]: They try to actually dock their ships and then go over land to the city of Panama, which is on the Pacific side.
01:34:42 --> 01:34:43 [UNKNOWN]: It doesn't succeed.
01:34:45 --> 01:34:51 [UNKNOWN]: And then while they're on a boat, just off the coast of Panama, Francis Drake dies of this century.
01:34:52 --> 01:35:01 [UNKNOWN]: And it's, it's anti-climactic in a way, not to the Spanish, like they're seeing just, you know, the hand of God striking down the dragon there like, there you have it.
01:35:01 --> 01:35:07 [UNKNOWN]: He was opposing the Catholics and now he died of this century, like it's, everything is right in the world.
01:35:08 --> 01:35:08 [UNKNOWN]: Which is the same.
01:35:08 --> 01:35:14 [UNKNOWN]: By the way, they, they do think some, the back of those days, the Catholic Church should believe like, at least they put out there.
01:35:14 --> 01:35:19 [UNKNOWN]: If you die in a painful, terrible way, it was a sign that God wasn't with you.
01:35:19 --> 01:35:28 [UNKNOWN]: So for example, when Martin Luther died, they had to have like a bunch of witness sitting around them, acknowledging that like, because he kind of died of an old man, like he didn't die painfully.
01:35:28 --> 01:35:29 [UNKNOWN]: He didn't cry out.
01:35:29 --> 01:35:30 [UNKNOWN]: I was wrong.
01:35:30 --> 01:35:31 [UNKNOWN]: Pope saved me or anything like that.
01:35:31 --> 01:35:32 [UNKNOWN]: It had several witnesses.
01:35:32 --> 01:35:34 [UNKNOWN]: It was like he died a normal old man death.
01:35:35 --> 01:35:51 [UNKNOWN]: check like this wasn't a sign of God's wrath so then flash forward 40 years 50 years in Francis Drake dies a painful disease out in the middle of the oh you know then they're definitely gonna write that down it's like aha we knew you were on our side and God proved it with your death
01:35:51 --> 01:35:52 [UNKNOWN]: So that's it.
01:35:52 --> 01:35:58 [UNKNOWN]: He is putting his full armor and they put him in a let's coffin, which you're thinking like that's weird.
01:35:58 --> 01:36:01 [UNKNOWN]: No, not if you want to be buried at sea, so they drop him into the ocean.
01:36:02 --> 01:36:06 [UNKNOWN]: Somewhere off the coast of Panama, people are looking for him actively, still to this day.
01:36:07 --> 01:36:08 [UNKNOWN]: Haven't found the coffin yet.
01:36:10 --> 01:36:10 [UNKNOWN]: And that's it.
01:36:11 --> 01:36:12 [UNKNOWN]: That's the life of Francis Drake.
01:36:12 --> 01:36:16 [UNKNOWN]: Like we started with hero villain pirate, private tear.
01:36:17 --> 01:36:26 [UNKNOWN]: And like you've seen this, yeah, mayor, like successful Armada, destroyer, failure in actually then destroying your Mata again.
01:36:26 --> 01:36:28 [UNKNOWN]: And he was on land.
01:36:28 --> 01:36:31 [UNKNOWN]: He seemed like he always did better when he was in a boat.
01:36:33 --> 01:36:35 [UNKNOWN]: He does all he's on a bow, every story where he's on land.
01:36:35 --> 01:36:40 [UNKNOWN]: He's like bearing treasure while being chased or running through spain, burning things.
01:36:40 --> 01:36:42 [UNKNOWN]: But put him on a bow and he's doing a great job.
01:36:42 --> 01:36:53 [UNKNOWN]: That is probably true, but it just leaves one great question to answer and this is a long one already and I'm enjoying it so we're just going to keep going.
01:36:53 --> 01:36:56 [UNKNOWN]: So was Sir Francis Drake a Christian or not?
01:37:03 --> 01:37:05 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, surferences Drake.
01:37:05 --> 01:37:06 [UNKNOWN]: We've heard the bio.
01:37:06 --> 01:37:08 [UNKNOWN]: We've heard his story.
01:37:08 --> 01:37:12 [UNKNOWN]: It's been a wilder I so far, Troy, but now I feel like I've gone around the globe.
01:37:12 --> 01:37:14 [UNKNOWN]: That's a bit of a surprise true.
01:37:14 --> 01:37:19 [UNKNOWN]: And it's going to get a little bit wilder still talking about the Christianity of surferences Drake.
01:37:20 --> 01:37:37 [UNKNOWN]: And just we're going to go over this quick because we know we've been keeping you waiting very long for like the the climax of this episode like it's gold Christian and so far it's just been history and people are like, well, you know, when when's the Christian part coming, but you know, if you don't like history, you probably check that a while ago.
01:37:37 --> 01:37:38 [UNKNOWN]: So you're still with us here.
01:37:38 --> 01:37:43 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so if I didn't click surferences, Drake or not, because you probably didn't know what a france Drake was.
01:37:43 --> 01:37:49 [UNKNOWN]: You know, that's how to be mean, but I'm just saying, like, that's not a name that's familiar to a lot of us.
01:37:49 --> 01:37:50 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no, that is true.
01:37:50 --> 01:37:55 [UNKNOWN]: Okay, I'm just going to list off some stuff and some quotes really quickly.
01:37:56 --> 01:37:57 [UNKNOWN]: He brought a chapter on his boats.
01:37:57 --> 01:38:05 [UNKNOWN]: We already mentioned this frances lecture and on all his other journeys he was always mentioned as bringing a preacher on his boats.
01:38:06 --> 01:38:21 [UNKNOWN]: really differentiated from regular pirates who not only did not bring chaplains on their boat, but oftentimes when they would catch boats with chaplains or things like that, they were well known for mocking them for giving mock sermons in front of them for killing them.
01:38:22 --> 01:38:25 [UNKNOWN]: So it is important to note like, you know, pirates are not generally nice guys.
01:38:26 --> 01:38:29 [UNKNOWN]: He's a private here, but he's unique in that he's keeping a chaplain.
01:38:30 --> 01:38:30 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:38:30 --> 01:38:32 [UNKNOWN]: So, there you have that.
01:38:33 --> 01:38:34 [UNKNOWN]: He brought a Bible with him, always.
01:38:35 --> 01:38:38 [UNKNOWN]: And he brought another book with him, called Fox's Book of Martyr.
01:38:38 --> 01:38:39 [UNKNOWN]: She may have heard of this one.
01:38:39 --> 01:38:39 [UNKNOWN]: I'll see.
01:38:40 --> 01:38:40 [UNKNOWN]: It's still around.
01:38:41 --> 01:38:46 [UNKNOWN]: It's probably a book that Elise has read, you know, for her is Martyr Zameen.
01:38:46 --> 01:38:48 [UNKNOWN]: It was part of the inspiration of Martyr's Emissionaries.
01:38:48 --> 01:38:51 [UNKNOWN]: It was like, you know, we need a modern version of that here.
01:38:51 --> 01:38:56 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, Mark is looking at the signing and up here in our studio for Martyr's Emissionaries.
01:38:56 --> 01:38:57 [UNKNOWN]: But definitely,
01:38:57 --> 01:39:00 [UNKNOWN]: an important part of what I feel like we do.
01:39:00 --> 01:39:03 [UNKNOWN]: So yeah, great book, Wonderful Love it.
01:39:03 --> 01:39:05 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, so and it was actually in his time it was a new book.
01:39:05 --> 01:39:17 [UNKNOWN]: It was just written like somewhere after the rule of Bloody Mary and it mentioned like a Martius old away back from like the start of the church, but also especially had like a whole chapter dedicated to the 300 people that were burned.
01:39:17 --> 01:39:25 [UNKNOWN]: at the stake at that time, so that was, um, which, any, actually, they lived a lot, contemporarily, John Fox, I thought they're one of us had the quote here.
01:39:25 --> 01:39:35 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, there's a quote of the Lord, it's speaking of him, Fox said, the Lord has raised up valiant captains, even such as Drake to scourge the anti-Christ, in his brood from Spain.
01:39:36 --> 01:39:37 [UNKNOWN]: And you, and that really gives you a vibe.
01:39:38 --> 01:39:42 [UNKNOWN]: How English people, tells about the Spanish Empire at the time.
01:39:42 --> 01:39:47 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you know, every time someone brings in like dirty antichrist, they probably, you know, not fans.
01:39:47 --> 01:39:47 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:39:47 --> 01:39:51 [UNKNOWN]: So it didn't always be he and we consider the antichrist the bad guy.
01:39:51 --> 01:39:56 [UNKNOWN]: And so when you call a country, the antichrist, you know, no, I'm with you on that one.
01:39:56 --> 01:39:57 [UNKNOWN]: We don't disagree there.
01:39:58 --> 01:40:03 [UNKNOWN]: And there have been reports of him trying to convert Spanish prisoners to Protestantism.
01:40:04 --> 01:40:07 [UNKNOWN]: They had a mandatory morning prayer on his boats.
01:40:08 --> 01:40:14 [UNKNOWN]: And there was like a very strong connection just to what he did to Protestantism.
01:40:14 --> 01:40:21 [UNKNOWN]: And even like he was part of something that some listeners probably already know, something called the English sea dogs.
01:40:22 --> 01:40:36 [UNKNOWN]: There were many more or many where there were a couple of other guys similar to Francis Drake doing like this state sponsored private hearing and there was like a very clear like they were all like Calvinist Protestants and there was a very clear like we're out here to fight the Catholics.
01:40:36 --> 01:40:39 [UNKNOWN]: So that's that's really what he what he did.
01:40:40 --> 01:40:55 [UNKNOWN]: Well, here's another quote in launching a tech after a tech again, Spain Drake saw his mission as vanquishing of Spain that chief promoter of the anti-Christ on earth And I think here the enterprise if it refers to a person it would have been the pope at that time
01:40:57 --> 01:41:13 [UNKNOWN]: And he's, he grew up in ardent Protestant, there is quotes from his, from the role encompassed, we fell down upon our knees, giving thanks to the Yomadi God, but delivered us from the fury of our enemies and by the good hand of God upon us, we came safe into our desired harbor.
01:41:15 --> 01:41:22 [UNKNOWN]: There's just a lot of quotes here, and now I just want to read a couple of other quotes because there is there is two sides to this story.
01:41:23 --> 01:41:32 [UNKNOWN]: Most of the quotes that we just read to you right now are like from the 1600s, like really close to when Drake was still alive or had just passed away.
01:41:32 --> 01:41:32 [UNKNOWN]: And.
01:41:36 --> 01:41:54 [UNKNOWN]: it actually makes it hard to find things about like what was it really like what was he living I was he actively living out of his faith or not because from like the 18 like mid 19th century to now there is actually like a second movement that sort of look back at Drake and sort of re
01:41:55 --> 01:42:20 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, they did another take on the history and said like, yeah, it was actually all these things that we just read, the quotes that we just read and even some of the legends about the morning prayer about those things, it was actually Protestant propaganda from the English to sort of elevate him as a Protestant hero, and so I'm going to quote from a man named Harry Kelsey who wrote a book called
01:42:21 --> 01:42:33 [UNKNOWN]: Sir Francis Drake, the Queen's Pirate in 1998, and he says the Legend of Drake, as a Protestant champion, was born of Elizabethan propaganda and sustained by later nationalist writers in reality.
01:42:33 --> 01:42:47 [UNKNOWN]: His motives were commercial and political, not crusading, and later on, in his bookie writes, Drake was no Puritan zealoth, religion served as convenient, rhetoric, for actions driven by profit, adventure, and loyalty to his sovereign.
01:42:48 --> 01:42:50 [UNKNOWN]: And there's a couple more quotes like this.
01:42:51 --> 01:42:55 [UNKNOWN]: And yeah, we've gone through the story.
01:42:55 --> 01:42:59 [UNKNOWN]: You've heard all the things that he did.
01:43:00 --> 01:43:04 [UNKNOWN]: We went through the whole episode with Francis Fletcher with the preacher on the boat.
01:43:06 --> 01:43:09 [UNKNOWN]: And now we need to come to a conclusion, Troy.
01:43:09 --> 01:43:10 [UNKNOWN]: Where did we go?
01:43:11 --> 01:43:12 [UNKNOWN]: What do we think?
01:43:12 --> 01:43:14 [UNKNOWN]: All right, let's go to the final vertebrae here.
01:43:15 --> 01:43:16 [UNKNOWN]: Let's go, our final verdict.
01:43:16 --> 01:43:18 [UNKNOWN]: Francis Drake was a Christian or not.
01:43:20 --> 01:43:22 [UNKNOWN]: Shall I take a first go here?
01:43:22 --> 01:43:24 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, you definitely should take the lead.
01:43:25 --> 01:43:27 [UNKNOWN]: I think it's really tough.
01:43:27 --> 01:43:38 [UNKNOWN]: I think it's tough, and I struggle with it because we said this before and we're gonna be saying this in many episodes, you gotta look at it within his time frame.
01:43:38 --> 01:43:40 [UNKNOWN]: Like within the time period that he was living and
01:43:41 --> 01:43:50 [UNKNOWN]: Whether it was true or not, there was Catholic persecutions happening, whether it was true it happened to his family specifically, we don't know, but there was definitely Catholic persecutions happening.
01:43:51 --> 01:43:57 [UNKNOWN]: He was born in 1540, Loving Mary's, like I think like four or five years after that, or even a little bit later.
01:43:57 --> 01:44:01 [UNKNOWN]: So he would have known of these things, he had foxes, book of martyrs.
01:44:02 --> 01:44:05 [UNKNOWN]: So he was well aware of like this Catholic Protestant conflict.
01:44:06 --> 01:44:08 [UNKNOWN]: So within that frame,
01:44:09 --> 01:44:19 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, I mean, I don't condone violence, but I can try and understand some of it that like just take the 10 commandments.
01:44:20 --> 01:44:29 [UNKNOWN]: Like it's just like he's not, like he's stealing, he's murdering people maybe or even like the wrath of the massacre.
01:44:29 --> 01:44:34 [UNKNOWN]: Like we know for sure he's been at least implicit of murder.
01:44:34 --> 01:44:38 [UNKNOWN]: Like he's been there, he's at least like an accessory to the crime.
01:44:39 --> 01:44:46 [UNKNOWN]: like those things, I see those things and like yeah, I mean and I struggle with it like slave trade.
01:44:47 --> 01:44:59 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, absolutely bad, but in their days like, yeah, I mean, I don't like, like you said as well, like we don't want to like, you know, try to try to make it sound good or like, oh, no, it wasn't a bad though.
01:44:59 --> 01:45:00 [UNKNOWN]: It was very bad.
01:45:00 --> 01:45:01 [UNKNOWN]: Obviously, all the
01:45:08 --> 01:45:11 [UNKNOWN]: religiously inspired violence.
01:45:11 --> 01:45:19 [UNKNOWN]: Like I, and I've actually just listened to your episode on the night's Templars where you also do like this whole part of like the warrior monks, very interesting.
01:45:19 --> 01:45:24 [UNKNOWN]: If you have time listen to it, revive thoughts, deep dive on the night's Templar part too, coming somewhere soon.
01:45:25 --> 01:45:29 [UNKNOWN]: And because I know I've heard from a good source that it's been recorded.
01:45:30 --> 01:45:32 [UNKNOWN]: And I just struggle with that.
01:45:32 --> 01:45:37 [UNKNOWN]: that religious violence and maybe that's my culture.
01:45:37 --> 01:45:38 [UNKNOWN]: That's what I grew up with.
01:45:38 --> 01:45:42 [UNKNOWN]: Like right now, we don't go out and crusade anywhere.
01:45:42 --> 01:45:44 [UNKNOWN]: We don't go out and fight the Catholics anymore.
01:45:44 --> 01:45:46 [UNKNOWN]: You don't?
01:45:46 --> 01:45:50 [UNKNOWN]: Not even one solid, our moda burning.
01:45:50 --> 01:45:51 [UNKNOWN]: You have it on that.
01:45:51 --> 01:46:08 [UNKNOWN]: not not recently and I don't have any planned for now so so that's where I struggle with this that's where I'm like okay brings Bibles he has the mandatory prayer like like okay there is this this reframing of it was just all propaganda
01:46:09 --> 01:46:11 [UNKNOWN]: I just can't have an opinion.
01:46:11 --> 01:46:12 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know.
01:46:12 --> 01:46:13 [UNKNOWN]: I wasn't there.
01:46:13 --> 01:46:14 [UNKNOWN]: I don't know what it was.
01:46:15 --> 01:46:29 [UNKNOWN]: If those things were true, if he was reading his Bible, if he was doing the morning prayers, for me, I just can't match that with then burning Catholic churches, taking their gold, fighting Catholic.
01:46:29 --> 01:46:35 [UNKNOWN]: Even if they were evil, like you just said, like even if the Catholics were evil, like, I just can't rep my mind on it.
01:46:35 --> 01:46:36 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, it put it in different contexts.
01:46:37 --> 01:47:02 [UNKNOWN]: we don't we're having trouble like we we let's use the context everyone always uses mullies to not seize the americans or something like that are you saying that if there was you know churches to Hitler and you know that the the american christians come in and they burn some of those down and steal money from the the Nazis in that type of wartime moments and stuff like that
01:47:03 --> 01:47:10 [UNKNOWN]: Do you really think like anybody would sit there and go, wow, I don't know that's stealing right like everyone knows that that would be seen as acceptable.
01:47:10 --> 01:47:17 [UNKNOWN]: Well in the mind of the Christian and England It that that's the Spanish Empire.
01:47:17 --> 01:47:30 [UNKNOWN]: They are an anti-Christ institution all of their preachers are telling them that They are they are inquisitioning people and killing them all around the world if you if you try to be Protestant and Spain is how far it gets you know saying like it's a difficult thing to do
01:47:32 --> 01:47:36 [UNKNOWN]: you're just, you're just matching them their energy back.
01:47:36 --> 01:47:39 [UNKNOWN]: If you, if you met a guy, and there aren't as many of these around anymore.
01:47:39 --> 01:47:49 [UNKNOWN]: So what you mean a guy who's served in that kind of combat, and he tells you about his secret missions, where they took down supply caravans and rerouted the supplies away to the to their side and not their side.
01:47:50 --> 01:47:54 [UNKNOWN]: We would just look at that thing and just sit there and go, wow, like what an amazing soldier of war.
01:47:55 --> 01:48:00 [UNKNOWN]: And I don't know that we would question whether or not that made him no longer a Christian or not.
01:48:00 --> 01:48:06 [UNKNOWN]: I mean, in my wrong though, I feel like I feel like the biggest part of it is that it's a religious war.
01:48:06 --> 01:48:16 [UNKNOWN]: But even if we say, okay, even if we would say, hey, I don't maybe think all of these guys this sat in the other, but from his world, all of his preachers and teachers have told him
01:48:16 --> 01:48:22 [UNKNOWN]: that the Pope is anti-Christ and these people are evil, he doesn't know anything else.
01:48:23 --> 01:48:28 [UNKNOWN]: So does this disqualify his Christianity then if he's living under what he's been trained and taught?
01:48:30 --> 01:48:54 [UNKNOWN]: That is a very good point and and and and I think for me, there's this is sort of like a cultural and chronological class like you had that quote from sees sees Lewis right like I think that a place again here I you can quote it again I forgot what it was chronological snobbery like basically we had it we who live in I don't know I'm this is me paraphrasing for sure because I definitely am not getting this quote necessarily correct right now, but
01:48:54 --> 01:49:04 [UNKNOWN]: The phrase, kind of logical, snobbery is his, but it's just basically saying, we who live in the future will have just such a tendency to look down on those who live in the past.
01:49:05 --> 01:49:06 [UNKNOWN]: And I definitely think we do.
01:49:07 --> 01:49:07 [UNKNOWN]: I definitely think we do.
01:49:07 --> 01:49:12 [UNKNOWN]: We have to be very careful with it, because we don't want to look at Surfer ancestry.
01:49:12 --> 01:49:12 [UNKNOWN]: It can go.
01:49:12 --> 01:49:13 [UNKNOWN]: He's so dumb.
01:49:13 --> 01:49:15 [UNKNOWN]: Look at him burning churches.
01:49:15 --> 01:49:16 [UNKNOWN]: I would never do something like that.
01:49:17 --> 01:49:22 [UNKNOWN]: But forgetting that we often celebrate, you know, the people who do many things
01:49:26 --> 01:49:30 [UNKNOWN]: in their minds just as violent as what he's doing with his little galley ship.
01:49:30 --> 01:49:30 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:49:31 --> 01:49:32 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, that is true.
01:49:32 --> 01:49:38 [UNKNOWN]: So it's, I guess, I still struggle with this because I even wrote this down.
01:49:39 --> 01:49:44 [UNKNOWN]: Like, I feel like I can see how from his point of view he is a Christian.
01:49:44 --> 01:49:46 [UNKNOWN]: Like, I know down about that.
01:49:47 --> 01:49:48 [UNKNOWN]: He's doing the right thing.
01:49:48 --> 01:49:56 [UNKNOWN]: He's defending the Protestant beliefs, but I just feel there is such a clear undercurrent of like greed and opportunism.
01:49:56 --> 01:50:01 [UNKNOWN]: And that's where I struggle like even when you look at him just taking old gold, not everything.
01:50:02 --> 01:50:04 [UNKNOWN]: And, and, um,
01:50:05 --> 01:50:07 [UNKNOWN]: Well, maybe a counter question.
01:50:07 --> 01:50:17 [UNKNOWN]: And like, like, I really understand your point, but like, biblically, would you be able to, to, you know, throw me a good quote or a passage.
01:50:17 --> 01:50:20 [UNKNOWN]: It says, like, okay, wait, you know, there is like the circumstances of war.
01:50:20 --> 01:50:22 [UNKNOWN]: It's okay to steal.
01:50:22 --> 01:50:32 [UNKNOWN]: And like, I'm not doing this to be like, oh, just, but only if you show the Bible that it's true, like, I really want to understand your point, but I'm still sort of trying to wrap my head around.
01:50:32 --> 01:50:39 [UNKNOWN]: Would you have anything for me that would help me like like an example from about like hey look but look at this like something like this maybe I'm putting you on a spot here.
01:50:39 --> 01:50:58 [UNKNOWN]: No you're not but it's more just like I mean there are very little biblical commands on warfare in general right you know what I'm saying like we don't have a lot like yes obviously we have the old testament which is full of battles in fighting and which case you know if you're talking about using David or some of like that as an example of good general ship
01:50:58 --> 01:51:01 [UNKNOWN]: Absolutely, we could see slotters and things like that.
01:51:01 --> 01:51:02 [UNKNOWN]: It can be considered a great warfare.
01:51:03 --> 01:51:09 [UNKNOWN]: I think the average person who's a Christian though is not looking necessarily for destruction of the Canaanite kind of passages.
01:51:09 --> 01:51:12 [UNKNOWN]: We're looking for passages that say, okay, how should warfare be commanded today?
01:51:13 --> 01:51:15 [UNKNOWN]: But there are almost next to no passages on that, right?
01:51:15 --> 01:51:18 [UNKNOWN]: I can't think of any passages that talk about that.
01:51:18 --> 01:51:20 [UNKNOWN]: That's not what the New Testament focus is on the person of Christ.
01:51:21 --> 01:51:25 [UNKNOWN]: So then we have to look at, okay, well, what are the principles and the ideas from Scripture?
01:51:25 --> 01:51:31 [UNKNOWN]: I don't get the impression that the idea from Scripture is war and soldiers can never be fought.
01:51:31 --> 01:51:34 [UNKNOWN]: I don't see when Paul says be a good soldier for the Lord.
01:51:34 --> 01:51:39 [UNKNOWN]: He's commending the idea, for example, of a soldier being an honorable position at times.
01:51:39 --> 01:51:43 [UNKNOWN]: Something that he expects that will be around for a long time that we can use this imagery of the soldier.
01:51:44 --> 01:51:47 [UNKNOWN]: So then if we're looking at the idea that soldiers can fight for their homeland.
01:51:48 --> 01:51:56 [UNKNOWN]: From the perspective of Francis Drake, isn't he only attacking the Spanish to defeat this group of people that is wrecking havoc across the world?
01:51:57 --> 01:51:58 [UNKNOWN]: And he's attacking them.
01:51:58 --> 01:52:02 [UNKNOWN]: He is taking their gold, but it's too weak in the Spanish.
01:52:03 --> 01:52:04 [UNKNOWN]: And he's bringing it back to England.
01:52:04 --> 01:52:06 [UNKNOWN]: He's handing it all back over to his government.
01:52:06 --> 01:52:10 [UNKNOWN]: The government does give him some of that gold back, but it's like his salary.
01:52:10 --> 01:52:13 [UNKNOWN]: Like he's like here, I caught, I think it was something like 240 pounds.
01:52:15 --> 01:52:19 [UNKNOWN]: worth of silver when he went and did that battle off the coast of California.
01:52:20 --> 01:52:22 [UNKNOWN]: He could have bought America for that amount of money.
01:52:23 --> 01:52:27 [UNKNOWN]: And instead, he goes over, gives it to the queen and I believe he gets back 10.
01:52:27 --> 01:52:30 [UNKNOWN]: Now that's the equivalent of $5 million US dollars.
01:52:30 --> 01:52:31 [UNKNOWN]: He got paid well.
01:52:32 --> 01:52:34 [UNKNOWN]: But certainly, he could have had a lot more money.
01:52:35 --> 01:52:39 [UNKNOWN]: Now, did maybe they did some of the him and the soldier's squirrels, some extra money here and there away.
01:52:39 --> 01:52:40 [UNKNOWN]: It of course is possible.
01:52:40 --> 01:52:47 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, but I guess my thought is, if he's in it for the greed, he could have made a lot more money without having to go back and hand it back to Queen Elizabeth.
01:52:47 --> 01:52:52 [UNKNOWN]: But giving it back to Queen Elizabeth makes me think that it was more, there was more to it than purely greed.
01:52:53 --> 01:52:53 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:52:54 --> 01:52:54 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
01:52:55 --> 01:52:55 [UNKNOWN]: I think so.
01:52:56 --> 01:52:57 [UNKNOWN]: You've convinced me on that part.
01:52:58 --> 01:53:01 [UNKNOWN]: I'm still, I mean, it's just so foreign to me.
01:53:01 --> 01:53:06 [UNKNOWN]: The idea, like, like, and look, I've even seen the Catholics as such a clear anti-Christ.
01:53:06 --> 01:53:08 [UNKNOWN]: And we have to, you know, be finding them.
01:53:09 --> 01:53:32 [UNKNOWN]: but counterpoint the Catholics were doing the same like they were building in Armada they were like we got to make England Catholic again and we both know like I've listened to your London fire episode Catholics are around every corner yeah at that point trying to make England Catholic again this is roughly like 80 years later it's still happening like it's still and it's still happening so yeah
01:53:34 --> 01:53:55 [UNKNOWN]: maybe in a way like we do a bit of a debt to a guy like Sir Francis Drake for like you already said keeping England Protestant like it would have been very hard for the the Dutch like a very young Protestant nation to prosper as well as they did if King was Catholic as well they would they would pretty much be alone them in some parts of Germany maybe.
01:53:56 --> 01:53:57 [UNKNOWN]: I don't think we can even fully like
01:53:58 --> 01:54:05 [UNKNOWN]: conceive how different the world would be that Spanish Armana had landed and had any kind of realistic success in England.
01:54:06 --> 01:54:14 [UNKNOWN]: I mean that would mean as America colon as America was colonized that's being colonized by maybe theoretically a Catholic or partially Catholic country.
01:54:15 --> 01:54:23 [UNKNOWN]: I like you said the Netherlands now loses it's one of its biggest Protestant supporters at Canada, Australia, South Africa.
01:54:23 --> 01:54:26 [UNKNOWN]: I mean the whole world map might look very
01:54:26 --> 01:54:28 [UNKNOWN]: different and very much more Catholic.
01:54:29 --> 01:54:44 [UNKNOWN]: If that Armada had landed in England, and it really seems hard to say that it wasn't Sir Francis Drake who didn't, if you're going to give the responsibility to any one person, he's the guy who stopped it from taking off the first time that threw the giant wrench into the plans.
01:54:45 --> 01:54:47 [UNKNOWN]: With that said, I do think I do agree with you.
01:54:47 --> 01:54:51 [UNKNOWN]: So my verdict kind of lands similar to yours that I'm trying, I think I'm more positive.
01:54:54 --> 01:55:03 [UNKNOWN]: Because I'm not necessarily like a lot of the the the deconstructors of people who come back to 100 years later and go those people who live 200 years ago, I think it's all Propaganda.
01:55:03 --> 01:55:08 [UNKNOWN]: Why would you know you have no more evidence to your case and these people at least live there.
01:55:08 --> 01:55:09 [UNKNOWN]: They're eyewitnesses.
01:55:09 --> 01:55:14 [UNKNOWN]: Now, do I think the guy smiled, hugged, cried and was like, chop here friend.
01:55:14 --> 01:55:16 [UNKNOWN]: I don't you know what that does seem like an embellished it.
01:55:17 --> 01:55:23 [UNKNOWN]: I'm willing to say that maybe the Francis Drake's nephew was maybe, I hope surprisingly exaggerating the story.
01:55:24 --> 01:55:27 [UNKNOWN]: But the people who come along later say, oh, that's Protestant propaganda.
01:55:27 --> 01:55:29 [UNKNOWN]: You're living in 1998.
01:55:29 --> 01:55:38 [UNKNOWN]: Unless you have some documents that we didn't have access to, that says, Queen Elizabeth often encourage in bellishing stories to promote the Protestant cause.
01:55:38 --> 01:55:39 [UNKNOWN]: You have no evidence of that.
01:55:39 --> 01:55:40 [UNKNOWN]: You just don't.
01:55:40 --> 01:55:45 [UNKNOWN]: And you can't come along and just say, sorry, he never had Devos and carried the Fox's book of martyrs because we decided he didn't.
01:55:46 --> 01:55:48 [UNKNOWN]: you don't have any, you have no proof.
01:55:48 --> 01:55:51 [UNKNOWN]: In fact, you have negative proof, because these people live at the time and you did not.
01:55:51 --> 01:56:00 [UNKNOWN]: So I'm going to take the words of eyewitnesses more seriously than I am going to take the words of people who just don't, who are just negative deconstructors anyway.
01:56:00 --> 01:56:01 [UNKNOWN]: With that said,
01:56:02 --> 01:56:06 [UNKNOWN]: Hey, the massacre's bad, he's a rough guy.
01:56:07 --> 01:56:08 [UNKNOWN]: Would I want to sail with him?
01:56:09 --> 01:56:11 [UNKNOWN]: No, because I'd be like, hey, where are we going?
01:56:11 --> 01:56:12 [UNKNOWN]: No worry, we're going to Japan.
01:56:12 --> 01:56:14 [UNKNOWN]: Cool, why are we in Antarctica?
01:56:14 --> 01:56:16 [UNKNOWN]: Like I mean, so like the guy is not honest.
01:56:17 --> 01:56:27 [UNKNOWN]: He's rough, but does it take that kind of roughness to be the kind of pirate that takes sales up and down the coast of California for a year and does that kind of thing?
01:56:27 --> 01:56:28 [UNKNOWN]: Probably.
01:56:30 --> 01:56:36 [UNKNOWN]: I think he is very sincere, at least the the accounts are true in what in the deconstructors aren't correct.
01:56:36 --> 01:56:37 [UNKNOWN]: It's not propaganda.
01:56:37 --> 01:56:38 [UNKNOWN]: I think he's very sincere.
01:56:39 --> 01:56:43 [UNKNOWN]: I also think he sincerely confused in some ways, but I see him.
01:56:43 --> 01:56:45 [UNKNOWN]: I don't see him as a pirate necessarily.
01:56:45 --> 01:56:49 [UNKNOWN]: I see him as a soldier whose mission is to weaken Spain.
01:56:49 --> 01:56:57 [UNKNOWN]: And so from that perspective, a lot of things that we wouldn't necessarily want an average person to new, we would expect a soldier to do.
01:56:58 --> 01:57:00 [UNKNOWN]: And so I go a lot of, and also,
01:57:01 --> 01:57:07 [UNKNOWN]: as far as we can tell, he didn't massacre California or the Mexican cities like he was alone.
01:57:07 --> 01:57:09 [UNKNOWN]: He could have killed and slaughtered everybody.
01:57:10 --> 01:57:17 [UNKNOWN]: It doesn't seem like he did because when the chaplain complains about him, he puts the murder of
01:57:17 --> 01:57:27 [UNKNOWN]: the Thomas Downey guy on it from two years before he doesn't say, oh, and also the thousands of people we slaughtered that were under these Spanish lands, you know what I mean?
01:57:27 --> 01:57:30 [UNKNOWN]: Like he doesn't seem to even like that doesn't seem to be a thing.
01:57:30 --> 01:57:33 [UNKNOWN]: So it seems like Francis Drake was kind of on his best behavior while he robbed other ships.
01:57:35 --> 01:57:42 [UNKNOWN]: So I go, I think that not that if he was at our church today, the pastor would need to have a talk with this guy.
01:57:42 --> 01:57:46 [UNKNOWN]: But I'm willing to say, I'm cautiously optimistic that I think he might have been a Christian.
01:57:48 --> 01:58:06 [UNKNOWN]: And I will I will agree with you then and I will I do agree I still struggle with some of these parts, but just, you know, not to be a chronological snow I do think within the context, I think
01:58:07 --> 01:58:09 [UNKNOWN]: Could he have done better?
01:58:09 --> 01:58:10 [UNKNOWN]: Could he have been a clearer Christian?
01:58:11 --> 01:58:12 [UNKNOWN]: Yes, obviously.
01:58:12 --> 01:58:17 [UNKNOWN]: Like, if we had like, oh, here is like a book of devotional so we know he and my parents are doing.
01:58:17 --> 01:58:18 [UNKNOWN]: Those are the natives that we're bound to.
01:58:18 --> 01:58:20 [UNKNOWN]: I'm like, yeah, so that was not his best.
01:58:20 --> 01:58:21 [UNKNOWN]: He's not a good missionary.
01:58:21 --> 01:58:21 [UNKNOWN]: Sure.
01:58:21 --> 01:58:22 [UNKNOWN]: Yeah, no.
01:58:22 --> 01:58:30 [UNKNOWN]: Like, there could have been moments where he could have made it easier and us right now on this podcast, hundreds of years later to say, oh, yeah, obviously he's a Christian.
01:58:31 --> 01:58:31 [UNKNOWN]: But,
01:58:32 --> 01:58:38 [UNKNOWN]: I think there is a lot to learn here, like there is a lot of here, like in here, like that, or to learn to make his thing, like yeah.
01:58:39 --> 01:58:41 [UNKNOWN]: How do we deal with these kinds of things?
01:58:41 --> 01:58:53 [UNKNOWN]: And these kinds of histories, like with Protestants and Catholics fighting each other over and over, and I think I bet there's gonna be more episodes where you feature some people that are like in similar conflicts or different times, right?
01:58:53 --> 01:58:57 [UNKNOWN]: But similar things where, yeah, this is a different time.
01:58:57 --> 01:59:02 [UNKNOWN]: This is a different era, and yeah, so there you have it.
01:59:02 --> 01:59:03 [UNKNOWN]: Very difficult.
01:59:03 --> 01:59:04 [UNKNOWN]: very difficult.
01:59:04 --> 01:59:08 [UNKNOWN]: And like we said, we would love to hear your comments and it's if you made it to the end with us.
01:59:09 --> 01:59:13 [UNKNOWN]: Thank you so much for listening to this and, uh, Sir Francis Drake, Christian and not.
01:59:14 --> 01:59:14 [UNKNOWN]: Tell us in the comments.
01:59:15 --> 01:59:16 [UNKNOWN]: We love to hear from you.
01:59:16 --> 01:59:17 [UNKNOWN]: I'm looking forward to hearing.
01:59:17 --> 01:59:20 [UNKNOWN]: I'm looking forward to hearing if you agree, or if you think wrong, what do you think?
01:59:21 --> 01:59:25 [UNKNOWN]: Obviously he lived an amazing fascinating, uh, very unique life.
01:59:25 --> 01:59:29 [UNKNOWN]: Obviously he has some very not great moments and dark moments in that life.
01:59:29 --> 01:59:39 [UNKNOWN]: But I'm be curious if you agree with us on cautiously optimistic for Sir Francis Drake or if you're going to stay here and go like, here's the exactly why I think you guys are way off base.
01:59:39 --> 01:59:42 [UNKNOWN]: I'm going to hear from you because you don't think we have all the answers.
01:59:42 --> 01:59:52 [UNKNOWN]: We know that God ultimately knows, but also by talking and sharing, we can all learn a little bit more and grow together in that way and hopefully sharpen our own faith by these discussions.
01:59:52 --> 01:59:53 [UNKNOWN]: So, this is Troy.
01:59:54 --> 01:59:57 [UNKNOWN]: And my name is Mark and this was Christian or not.