In our first Feedback episode of Christian or Not, Mark and I respond to your thoughts and comments on Rockefeller and Newton!
We discuss the most common questions people are asking, the surprising pushback, and where we may have gotten it wrong.
Thank you for watching and commenting! This show is better because of your engagement.
Search “Christian or Not” on YouTube or your favorite podcast app for more.
New episodes and feedback episodes every two weeks.
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#ChristianOrNot #FeedbackEpisode #IsaacNewton #JohnDRockefeller #ChurchHistory
00:00 --> 00:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Christian or not is a production of Revive Studios.
00:06 --> 00:25 [SPEAKER_00]: We have put out episodes here on Christian or not going over the life of Isaac Newton and John Rockefeller and we ask the question whether you agree with us on whether these guys were Christians or not and so this is our first episode where we hear from you did we get it right and did we get it wrong, find out on this feedback episode of Christian or not.
00:31 --> 00:34 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, here we are Troy, how are you feeling?
00:34 --> 00:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I am feeling great.
00:35 --> 00:37 [SPEAKER_00]: What do you talk about Marcus the Great Day?
00:38 --> 00:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It is been many months since we recorded these episodes originally and so it is super nice to finally get back to the feedback episode.
00:46 --> 00:49 [SPEAKER_00]: We were talking about months ago and we're actually finally doing them.
00:49 --> 00:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so yeah, we've been in production for a while, which is a fancy way of saying we were too busy with other things to actually edit the episodes.
01:01 --> 01:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, give it some credit.
01:02 --> 01:09 [SPEAKER_00]: If Producing a podcast takes a while, for example, the little music you hear was created by Mark and his wife.
01:10 --> 01:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, they made that soundtrack itself, and which is really cool because we have other shows, we used soundtracks that were copyright free.
01:18 --> 01:22 [SPEAKER_00]: And now we get hit by random copyright infringement things, even though they were copyright free.
01:22 --> 01:26 [SPEAKER_00]: That will never happen with this little cool intro that Mark and his wife created.
01:26 --> 01:30 [SPEAKER_01]: And most girls go to my wife because she's the only one that actually played an instrument on it.
01:30 --> 01:36 [SPEAKER_01]: She played the violin, the sort of like Pizikato violin you hear that's her playing.
01:36 --> 01:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And it was me, you know, pretending to mirror that.
01:39 --> 01:41 [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's been like seven months.
01:41 --> 01:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I think since we recorded both of these episodes that we're talking about today, Newton and Rockefeller.
01:47 --> 01:47 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're excited.
01:47 --> 01:50 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to show out their people are engaging.
01:50 --> 02:00 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's already like, you know, always a bit of a thing like, you know, we make something that we think is interesting, but do you actually think it's interesting and do you listen to us and do you comment, but you did.
02:00 --> 02:02 [SPEAKER_01]: So really excited about that.
02:02 --> 02:07 [SPEAKER_01]: And I just want to kick it off here with a comment about Troy that someone shared with us.
02:08 --> 02:12 [SPEAKER_01]: The first comment that we talk about Josiah, thank you for listening, watching, commenting.
02:13 --> 02:18 [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, what Mike Winger is to problematic charismatic troll is to old dead people.
02:19 --> 02:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So I appreciate that.
02:20 --> 02:22 [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds funny, maybe it's arrogant to like that comment.
02:22 --> 02:23 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.
02:23 --> 02:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But I was like, thank you.
02:24 --> 02:27 [SPEAKER_00]: I, you know, that's the goal around here.
02:27 --> 02:32 [SPEAKER_00]: Let those Mike Winger let him take care of the today guys with his six hour videos.
02:32 --> 02:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I will go after dead people who can't fight back.
02:37 --> 02:37 [SPEAKER_00]: That's the flame.
02:39 --> 02:56 [SPEAKER_01]: There's, I mean, you put it in a wrong way because the reason we've actually said this before like as soon as we started pitching show to people, they're like, oh, you got a good do this guy, you got to do that guy like, I mean, it's obvious Trump came up, but we're just saying we don't do people there alive because we don't know what's going to happen in their lives.
02:56 --> 02:59 [SPEAKER_01]: We can we can't really say anything about anyone that's still around.
02:59 --> 03:02 [SPEAKER_00]: If you want to know if somebody's a Christian or not, and they're still alive, go ask them.
03:03 --> 03:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Right?
03:03 --> 03:04 [SPEAKER_00]: It's the fair point.
03:05 --> 03:05 [SPEAKER_00]: You can send them an email.
03:06 --> 03:12 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, and I sound really silly, but somebody you asked Benjamin Franklin a couple months before you died, there's a variety of letter to him and asked him.
03:12 --> 03:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Most of our thoughts on what Benjamin Franklin knows about God comes from that letter, like two months before he died.
03:17 --> 03:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you'll send an email to some important person, and it'll be by his historians used to find out the truth something.
03:23 --> 03:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, sometimes people just tell you.
03:25 --> 03:41 [SPEAKER_00]: Our show is not to look at somebody who is alive, but to look at these guys who are already dead, who we, we, we, history, people may be debated or not, you know, and people outside of the church, because, you know, we don't need a Charles Spurgeon was a Christian, and if he wasn't, boy, he sure pulled the wool over a lot of people's eyes, right?
03:41 --> 03:48 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, this is for all the other guys, the guys who aren't in ministry, you know, we look at history and can learn so much about how to live our lives, based on people who lived,
03:49 --> 03:56 [SPEAKER_00]: But most of the people, and for good reason, are that church history is really important, but what about the guys outside of church history?
03:56 --> 03:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Because most of you listening maybe aren't in ministry.
03:59 --> 04:05 [SPEAKER_00]: It's cool what Spurgeon did or what Edward did or Martin Luther did, but you're never going to nail 95 of these.
04:05 --> 04:10 [SPEAKER_00]: These are your businessmen, you're a veterinarian, you're a dentist, you're you're a working at a warehouse.
04:11 --> 04:14 [SPEAKER_00]: You need somebody who maybe lived a normal life, but was a
04:18 --> 04:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
04:18 --> 04:21 [SPEAKER_01]: So talking about a very normal, unimpactful life.
04:21 --> 04:23 [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk more about Newton.
04:23 --> 04:27 [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's a joke right there because I was actually surprised.
04:27 --> 04:31 [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get more comments on us, you know, messing up the science of it.
04:31 --> 04:32 [SPEAKER_01]: Nobody cared about the science.
04:32 --> 04:33 [SPEAKER_00]: It was either.
04:33 --> 04:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody else can understand.
04:34 --> 04:36 [SPEAKER_00]: It's too deep for all of us, okay?
04:36 --> 04:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And the point 1% of physicists that are probably able to understand it probably aren't spending their free time listening to.
04:43 --> 04:55 [SPEAKER_00]: A Christian history style podcasting may be they are though, maybe we'll get to them eventually, but we'll see at least There's not enough of them that it was a problem, but Isaac Newton was surprising to me.
04:55 --> 04:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I expected people to if they were confused or
05:00 --> 05:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And there was going to be controversy, it would just be over like, oh, but I like me as a lot of good writings.
05:04 --> 05:18 [SPEAKER_00]: What I was not expecting was dozens of unitarians to start swarming my social media accounts and to follow me from post to post now complaining about how I'm not a Christian because I'm not a unitarian like Isaac Newton.
05:19 --> 05:20 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't mind it.
05:20 --> 05:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I have no problem when people get up at me at social media.
05:22 --> 05:24 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not actually a big deal to me.
05:24 --> 05:27 [SPEAKER_00]: It's just funny to me because I didn't know Unitarians were still around.
05:27 --> 05:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Mark, were you aware of the great Unitarian groups that are out there?
05:31 --> 05:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm gonna be honest with you, I had to look it up what the unitarianism was.
05:36 --> 05:39 [SPEAKER_01]: And so I just will show you some of the comments here.
05:40 --> 05:50 [SPEAKER_01]: So we have, these are mostly on X. I see people saying, who would say that a non-trainitarian religion cannot be Christian.
05:50 --> 05:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Christian is one who follows Christ, adding onto that to say if you believe in the way of Jesus but don't adopt it, he's the same as God and the Holy Spirit.
05:58 --> 06:00 [SPEAKER_01]: Spirit and you can be a follower is non-sensical.
06:01 --> 06:03 [SPEAKER_01]: It's the opposite of what Jesus taught.
06:03 --> 06:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Another one, horrible misrepresentation of the genius that was Newton.
06:07 --> 06:09 [SPEAKER_01]: He wrote more on the script just than you've ever read.
06:09 --> 06:14 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's probably true because he wrote a lot, although I would probably not.
06:14 --> 06:40 [SPEAKER_01]: agree with what he wrote because then this comment continues and he discerned through examination that the Trinity is a fraud not found in scripture and he proved it but I suspect that's evidence we won't see you cover uh I mean yes that's true we won't cover evidence that the Trinity is a fraud because we won't accept that as evidence because we believe the Trinity is not a fraud I mean that's maybe a cheap reply there but
06:42 --> 06:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know this, if you follow Troy on his podcast and you're now getting to know me on his podcast, we're Trinitarian Christians, another one, Bill Swersky says, I'm grateful that Isaac Newton rejected the light.
06:55 --> 07:06 [SPEAKER_01]: It is the Trinity doctrine, all through followers of Christ would be served, following his example, by worshiping only the Father as the most high God in spirit and truth, and then John 4, 23, and 24,
07:10 --> 07:10 [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have that pulled up?
07:11 --> 07:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I did, but I don't.
07:12 --> 07:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Here I got it, Rose.
07:13 --> 07:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So if you can pull that up.
07:14 --> 07:16 [SPEAKER_00]: I'll pull it up already from the ESC.
07:17 --> 07:18 [SPEAKER_00]: But the hour is coming.
07:18 --> 07:21 [SPEAKER_00]: There's now here when the true worshipers will worship the Father and Spirit and truth.
07:21 --> 07:23 [SPEAKER_00]: For the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
07:24 --> 07:27 [SPEAKER_00]: God is spirit and those who worship him must worship him and spirit and then truth.
07:28 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
07:28 --> 07:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
07:28 --> 07:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's at the woman at the well.
07:31 --> 07:31 [SPEAKER_01]: Passage.
07:31 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_00]: If I go right in that is correct.
07:33 --> 07:33 [SPEAKER_00]: That is the woman the well.
07:34 --> 07:43 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure how any in context reading of that could possibly tell you that, you know, this is not an anti trained attorney.
07:43 --> 07:44 [SPEAKER_00]: He's answering her.
07:44 --> 07:48 [SPEAKER_00]: If you look at the verses before she says the one the well says, you know, hey.
07:50 --> 07:52 [SPEAKER_00]: He had just called her out for her adultery.
07:52 --> 07:54 [SPEAKER_00]: He had just said, like, you don't have one husband, you have five.
07:54 --> 08:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And so she tries to switch gears into a religious topic and goes, you're the Jews say worship Jesus, you know, worship God in Jerusalem.
08:02 --> 08:03 [SPEAKER_00]: We say worship him over here.
08:04 --> 08:12 [SPEAKER_00]: And he goes, yeah, but there's coming a time when God is seeking people to worship him and spirit and in truth, and they can worship him wherever they are.
08:12 --> 08:15 [SPEAKER_00]: And then our has now come when God is going to do that.
08:16 --> 08:20 [SPEAKER_00]: that is not in a rejection of the idea that Jesus is God.
08:21 --> 08:31 [SPEAKER_00]: And her response is that then go out, gather all the people together, say, look at who I found he knows everything I have, is he the one we're waiting for and then everyone comes and believes in Jesus.
08:31 --> 08:37 [SPEAKER_00]: And I say, at first we heard what you said, but now we believe because we have seen he, you know, they're seeing Jesus as God.
08:38 --> 08:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just don't think this verse is what he thinks of this.
08:41 --> 08:42 [SPEAKER_00]: And interestingly too,
08:43 --> 08:49 [SPEAKER_00]: He's calling out this moment of the well by saying a spirit we worship God in spirit and in truth.
08:49 --> 08:55 [SPEAKER_00]: You see the she was kind of making the case like oh we were worshiping God you know we have the right We have the right heart behind it.
08:55 --> 09:02 [SPEAKER_00]: He's like yeah, but also true you have to actually know who God is to truly worship Him in spirit and in truth
09:03 --> 09:06 [SPEAKER_00]: that goes against almost what this person is saying when you really think about it.
09:06 --> 09:12 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yes, and I was thinking about this before I'm going to go through a few more comments also by people.
09:13 --> 09:28 [SPEAKER_01]: And we're saying unitarianists, we don't know if they necessarily describe to being a unitarian, like there's there's different streams there as well, but we'll just call it that just to keep it simple and I know the word in Dutch, over zichtlik.
09:28 --> 09:29 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know
09:32 --> 09:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, no, that makes sense.
09:34 --> 09:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, the Dutch listeners now know what's happening.
09:39 --> 09:46 [SPEAKER_01]: But just to give a little intro here, maybe for myself, because we're getting into like theology, apologetic kind of stuff.
09:47 --> 09:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not, I'm not actually used to that as much.
09:51 --> 09:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me just be perfect the honest here.
09:53 --> 09:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I grew up in a reformed church.
09:57 --> 10:02 [SPEAKER_01]: And that was a train of tearing church, but we didn't call it a train of tearing church, because that was sort of a given.
10:02 --> 10:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Like that's the basics.
10:04 --> 10:06 [SPEAKER_01]: Like we're in, that's called nice scene Christiania.
10:06 --> 10:08 [SPEAKER_01]: Actually, that's, I think, better way to say it.
10:09 --> 10:21 [SPEAKER_01]: And all the churches that have always been a part of were always nice seeing Christianity Churches, so it was always the Trinity, so I'm not actually used to this argument as much about Jesus not being God.
10:21 --> 10:30 [SPEAKER_01]: I got a little bit more into it when we were researching Newton also before listening to Troy's podcast actually about also learning about Aryanism and all the things.
10:31 --> 10:34 [SPEAKER_01]: For me it always just more confirmed me when I was reading the Bible.
10:34 --> 10:36 [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, no, I really believe.
10:36 --> 10:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus is God, and that God is three in one, so now being confronted by people that are, you know, of the opposite opinion, and I must admit it feels a little bit daunting, but I must also admit I don't think I'm gonna suddenly be a unitarianist after going through these things because that's the thing with these theological discussions and maybe that's my point.
11:01 --> 11:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually we're pretty, you know, dug into our own position.
11:04 --> 11:07 [SPEAKER_01]: Usually we think like, okay, yeah, but, okay, that's great that you believe that.
11:07 --> 11:14 [SPEAKER_01]: And it's especially a thing of like the West these days, like, okay, you do you and I believe what I believe and roll, you know, getting along.
11:14 --> 11:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But I do want to talk about this, still.
11:16 --> 11:20 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't want this to be like, yeah, okay, well, fine, you don't think this is true.
11:20 --> 11:22 [SPEAKER_01]: And you've discounted Newton for it.
11:23 --> 11:24 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I really believe it matters.
11:25 --> 11:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I believe it matters that Jesus is God and just to pull up a different comment real quick here that we got from Jacob Holloway.
11:34 --> 11:41 [SPEAKER_01]: What you believe about Jesus is truly the most important thing you can have was Jesus a prophet, a mere man filled with demons or was he the true and only son of God.
11:42 --> 11:45 [SPEAKER_01]: That is why the gospel is a stumbling block, even for great scientists like Newton.
11:45 --> 11:50 [SPEAKER_01]: The Bible is clear in John 1, the word was God.
11:50 --> 11:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Jesus was never created, but He was begotten of God eternally.
11:54 --> 12:01 [SPEAKER_01]: God is the unchanging Father and Jesus the eternally begotten Son, same essence of the Father, same essence as the Father.
12:02 --> 12:04 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's where I'm at.
12:04 --> 12:05 [SPEAKER_01]: That's what I agree with.
12:05 --> 12:14 [SPEAKER_01]: So just to say, like, we're doing these common episodes, but I really want to say, like, we respect these opinions.
12:14 --> 12:19 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, we really want to respect your opinions, but the fact that we're talking about them that may be saying, okay, but we don't agree.
12:19 --> 12:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, yeah, that's something that I'm struggling a little bit with.
12:23 --> 12:30 [SPEAKER_01]: So Troy, as a veteran of the social media discussions, can you help me out here a little bit to grapple with these things?
12:30 --> 12:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I say a very different approach.
12:32 --> 12:35 [SPEAKER_00]: don't mind what people say on mine, it doesn't affect me at all.
12:35 --> 12:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I have sometimes as some, because when you've been on certain social media sites like a Twitter, I would now X for a very long time.
12:41 --> 12:45 [SPEAKER_00]: And with the way our time zones work, I remember I tweeted you inspire this mark.
12:45 --> 12:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I tweeted one time.
12:48 --> 12:51 [SPEAKER_00]: If I walked in the church in your pastor was wearing flip flops, what would you do?
12:52 --> 12:53 [SPEAKER_00]: And it was like 10 at night.
12:53 --> 12:54 [SPEAKER_00]: I went to bed.
12:54 --> 12:55 [SPEAKER_00]: But we live on the opposite time zone.
12:55 --> 12:57 [SPEAKER_00]: And when I woke up, there was a thousand gods.
12:57 --> 13:23 [SPEAKER_00]: and people had spent the entire my version of night the day over there and the east are in the west just arguing over it and I it was inspired by humor and I could have thought what would you do if your pastor was barefoot because you all could do the worship leaving barefoot um but it was you know you were so fast so it was five and I mean it was everything and under the sun people some people were like I would walk out immediately how would you disrespect the house of god that way all the way to well didn't jesus where sandals
13:25 --> 13:29 [SPEAKER_00]: these debates and things they don't bother me, they don't impact me at all.
13:29 --> 13:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And for the unitary, and this doesn't say like I don't want to hear good opinions or good arguments, there are times where I'll be something.
13:34 --> 13:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I know you had thought of it that way.
13:36 --> 13:46 [SPEAKER_00]: The unitarians flooded my page tons of different things and every single one of the arguments I thought to myself I'm now more convinced I'm correct because the arguments were pretty shallow They weren't strong.
13:46 --> 14:00 [SPEAKER_00]: They didn't make the case at all that Jesus was not God and I got to be honest with you guys I thought we kind of thought the 1800s you guys kind of got crushed again, and I thought we Everything's like every you know so often the Aryans come back and try to convince us all Jesus was not God
14:01 --> 14:07 [SPEAKER_00]: and the arguments are pretty shallow and flimsy and have never really been convincing that nothing posted.
14:08 --> 14:15 [SPEAKER_00]: For example, like the worshiping God and spirit and in truth, how on earth does that disqualify the idea that Jesus is God?
14:15 --> 14:16 [SPEAKER_00]: Like it doesn't.
14:16 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: These are verses that are either out of context or the arguments are not convincing.
14:20 --> 14:20 [SPEAKER_00]: So the point
14:21 --> 14:26 [SPEAKER_00]: of our feedback episodes are not to be a somebody leaves a comment and we are curious them and tell them how they're wrong.
14:26 --> 14:28 [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to leave our feedback on the comment that that's about it.
14:28 --> 14:30 [SPEAKER_00]: But when I came to the initarians, I felt pretty calm.
14:30 --> 14:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I can you can put people in front of me and make arguments.
14:34 --> 14:35 [SPEAKER_00]: I can see how you can see it that way.
14:35 --> 14:36 [SPEAKER_00]: We disagree.
14:36 --> 14:37 [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, he has a good point.
14:37 --> 14:39 [SPEAKER_00]: This is not how I feel about this group of people.
14:39 --> 14:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like sorry guys, your arguments are not very strong.
14:43 --> 14:47 [SPEAKER_00]: But you did help make the case, which was we said Isaac Newton was not a Christian because it was the initarian.
14:48 --> 14:58 [SPEAKER_00]: and it were at least a rejector of Jesus as God, and boy, they really wanted to let us know that we were correct, except in their world, Isaac Newton is a Christian, and we're all the non-Christians.
14:59 --> 15:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I even if
15:01 --> 15:04 [SPEAKER_00]: you were correct, which you're not, you know, tears are not.
15:05 --> 15:10 [SPEAKER_00]: In their world view, 99.9% of Christians that I've ever lived are all not Christians.
15:10 --> 15:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And the point one percent of Christians that accept Jesus says, Lord, but not God, are the correct ones?
15:16 --> 15:18 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that is a weird world view to have anyway.
15:18 --> 15:21 [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you're the very, very rare fraction of percentages.
15:21 --> 15:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's say that majority rules here on anything like that.
15:24 --> 15:25 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying that to take their position,
15:26 --> 15:32 [SPEAKER_00]: even if there was merit to it would to be to really, you know, damn pretty much the entire church throughout history.
15:33 --> 15:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I just think that maybe if you're in that camp, maybe look back and go, what's more likely?
15:39 --> 15:55 [SPEAKER_00]: me in this rare fringe of people have figured out the secret to Christianity or that the majority from southern Baptist and non-denom Protestant churches all the way to the Catholic monks living in all of these people from very large spectrum.
15:55 --> 15:59 [SPEAKER_00]: The one thing they kind of of all had in common is that Jesus is a part of the Trinity.
16:00 --> 16:06 [SPEAKER_00]: What is more likely that that's one of the uniting things that we believe in as Christians or that that rare fringe percentage
16:09 --> 16:09 [SPEAKER_01]: I know.
16:10 --> 16:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:11 --> 16:17 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, and that's maybe, you know, we're not discussing between the two of us here, because I think we're definitely in agreement on this.
16:17 --> 16:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So thank you for your comments, still like, like I said, like we really want to hear these comments, because it makes us think about around theology.
16:25 --> 16:27 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's always a good thing.
16:27 --> 16:30 [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's always good to, you know, think about what you believe and why you believe it.
16:30 --> 16:58 [SPEAKER_00]: it's funny has one other comment people would send us and these are people who didn't listen to the show they didn't watch it they just said well why would I want to say something if I'd have like why would I care if somebody's a Christian from 70 years ago or whatever it is like maybe you wouldn't it's an inch I think and all of the discussions to have online of all things to listen to I think these are interesting topics right I mean we we're flooded with things on social media all to I don't know if people have Lego YouTube channel look at those are kind of cool and my wife will watch uh people cook random things and stuff like that and look
16:58 --> 17:00 [SPEAKER_00]: want to watch that, just if the recipe is good, it's good, right?
17:00 --> 17:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Of all the things to do online talking about people's faith is at least an interesting one.
17:04 --> 17:12 [SPEAKER_00]: But secondly, I will say that these episodes that we put out of Christian are not have received more feedback and more discussion on what makes a Christian.
17:13 --> 17:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Then most of the episodes I post on Church History, you know, and I think those Church History episodes are really good.
17:18 --> 17:34 [SPEAKER_00]: And we've received a lot of encouraging emails, but just watching people argue and put out the gospel and define the gospel has happened more in two episodes of Christian or not than I have seen in many years of revived thoughts where people are publicly telling each other, this is what makes the Christian know this is.
17:34 --> 17:38 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's a sign that this is probably something we need to do and look through.
17:39 --> 17:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm very encouraged by what we've seen on that.
17:42 --> 17:46 [SPEAKER_00]: One to read a comment by the way, Salvatah on YouTube.
17:46 --> 17:48 [SPEAKER_00]: She responded to the Isaac Newton, and said, very interesting things.
17:49 --> 17:53 [SPEAKER_00]: I would like to know where or how you learned that he did not consider the Jesus to be God.
17:53 --> 17:57 [SPEAKER_00]: Is there a quote by him or someone who knew him that you could read on the show for us?
17:57 --> 18:02 [SPEAKER_00]: The most interesting thing that I have there was out of the fore as Isaac and the Bible had not caught a serial counterfitter in my news.
18:02 --> 18:03 [SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome.
18:03 --> 18:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Again, a hard hitting and I can expect from us we're going to we're going to look through and I and again nobody has left a comment showing Isaac from the Bible catching a counterfitter.
18:12 --> 18:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So I feel pretty confident we can rest on that.
18:16 --> 18:25 [SPEAKER_00]: So where it comes from though the Isaac Newton line comes from a letter that he wrote to John Locke where he said and I pulled it up here in the my lost it, which is classic.
18:25 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, here it is.
18:26 --> 18:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:27 --> 18:34 [SPEAKER_00]: A quote, the quote is, we are forbidden to worship two gods, but we are not forbidden to worship one God in one Lord.
18:34 --> 18:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's saying that God the Father is God, Jesus can't be God because that would mean we worship two gods.
18:41 --> 18:42 [SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus must be Lord.
18:43 --> 18:53 [SPEAKER_00]: The idea that we serve one God in three, He is rejecting and putting Jesus into a different camp called Lord, that is clear as day-areaism.
18:53 --> 18:54 [SPEAKER_00]: That is exactly what
18:56 --> 19:13 [SPEAKER_00]: injecting that Jesus is the same as God the Father as the Holy Spirit, and He's saying, nope, He was created as a higher Lord, creature thing, similar to God, close to God, but not God, that's verbatim, what Isaac Newton is saying as well, to John Locke.
19:13 --> 19:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So it is a direct
19:18 --> 19:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, next comment, we have a comment that came on Spotify from Danielle, just proves that being a born again believer and being a creation scientist is two different things.
19:29 --> 19:34 [SPEAKER_01]: You can be the one without being the other, Newton is relevant to creation science, not Christianity.
19:34 --> 19:38 [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for the serious, well, welcome.
19:38 --> 19:40 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that is actually very true.
19:40 --> 19:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is obvious that Newton taught us a lot of stuff that Troy and I don't understand,
19:46 --> 19:52 [SPEAKER_01]: It taught us a lot of stuff about creation, actually about the nature of God and how amazing creation is.
19:53 --> 19:58 [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, and we set this in the episode as well, like it was a so close, and it just...
20:00 --> 20:13 [SPEAKER_01]: like what if if only he had just had that part where he would have actually believed that Jesus was God but it doesn't take away from all the amazing things that he did for the world of science and for us to understand creation.
20:14 --> 20:17 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah very true thank you for that comment.
20:18 --> 20:19 [SPEAKER_00]: And there are modern equivalents too.
20:20 --> 20:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't we're not trying to speculate on the faith that people who are alive.
20:22 --> 20:24 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's right to do necessary.
20:24 --> 20:26 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, we do you come on it.
20:26 --> 20:37 [SPEAKER_00]: That's one for the people who are like, well, why what I ever, there were people who would leave comments like, well, well, you can why would you ever try to guess someone's faith on like, so you don't you have children, but you don't ask the question whether your children or believers are not like, you
20:38 --> 20:43 [SPEAKER_00]: You have parents, but you never wonder, I have a hard time believing, because that would tell me you're not praying for them, right?
20:43 --> 20:50 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously, we want the people around us to be saying we do spend time asking the question whether someone is Christian or not in our own life.
20:50 --> 20:52 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's okay to do that as well.
20:52 --> 20:58 [SPEAKER_00]: We try not to do with people who are actually alive as we mentioned, but I can think of modern equivalents and you probably can too of people who
20:58 --> 21:02 [SPEAKER_00]: have a lot of knowledge of the Bible, but just our Christians.
21:02 --> 21:04 [SPEAKER_00]: I think maybe one example and I don't know what's nice to me as far as it is.
21:05 --> 21:10 [SPEAKER_00]: There's a famous atheist who memorized the entire Bible and literally you can ask of anything and he can read the Bible to you.
21:10 --> 21:14 [SPEAKER_00]: He liked the Bible enough to memorize it, but he's not a Christian.
21:14 --> 21:23 [SPEAKER_00]: And so there's things like that where these people their knowledge is actually surprisingly strong, but they just don't have a walk with God and
21:27 --> 21:35 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm trying to look through the comments here that we miss anything that we talked about that you mentioned this one because I think this is an important comment as well.
21:36 --> 21:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I think you touched on it just now, but I maybe missed when you actually read out the comment by a person named service Christie, which I think is a handle.
21:46 --> 21:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it would be a cool name, but I don't think it's is really time would be better served actually being a Christian as opposed to hunting who isn't.
21:56 --> 21:58 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes, I agree.
21:58 --> 22:02 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're hunting who isn't like we say in every episode.
22:02 --> 22:05 [SPEAKER_01]: We just want to learn from their lives.
22:05 --> 22:10 [SPEAKER_01]: We want to see about their lives and we do with open hands, open minds, and we say we don't know.
22:10 --> 22:11 [SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.
22:11 --> 22:15 [SPEAKER_01]: In the end, we don't know if this person was a Christian or not, but we like history.
22:15 --> 22:16 [SPEAKER_01]: We like theology.
22:16 --> 22:18 [SPEAKER_01]: So we talk about those things.
22:20 --> 22:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Hunting those who isn't, I mean, I wouldn't say hunting, but I would say that we would be like Troy also touched on, like we would be actively looking at our fellow men that is not a Christian and, you know, be trying to reach them with the gospel, be praying for them.
22:37 --> 22:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I wouldn't call hunting in that sense, but I do think time would be better served being a Christian Absolutely.
22:43 --> 22:46 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think it is a post to looking for those who aren't.
22:46 --> 22:51 [SPEAKER_01]: I think it is goes hand in hand That if we have a true faith in God and in Christ
22:52 --> 23:03 [SPEAKER_01]: How could we not be sharing that with people so how could we not be looking out into a world where we see people that are not Christian and, you know, be heartbroken for them and You know, get up on our feet and do something.
23:04 --> 23:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's my response to that comment.
23:06 --> 23:08 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you've anything to add to that Troy.
23:08 --> 23:11 [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's kind of add, as I realized, we've actually covered some of the negative feedback.
23:12 --> 23:14 [SPEAKER_00]: A lot here, just kind of clarifying things.
23:14 --> 23:18 [SPEAKER_00]: A, we're not like Matt, if you have negative feedback, feel free to leave it.
23:18 --> 23:20 [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to like, you know, or we're not going to like that.
23:21 --> 23:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But B, I don't want to give the impression that we put this show out and everyone's been mad at us.
23:24 --> 23:26 [SPEAKER_00]: And I just realized, oh, we've been like sharing the negatives.
23:26 --> 23:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's, you know how it is, you focus on negative things.
23:30 --> 23:34 [SPEAKER_00]: You know, if I say like nine nice things to mark right now and I throw one little bad thing somewhere in there.
23:34 --> 23:36 [SPEAKER_00]: The one bad thing is what is going to take home.
23:36 --> 23:39 [SPEAKER_00]: So that's just loosely in case you think, oh no, everyone doesn't like Christian or not.
23:39 --> 23:43 [SPEAKER_00]: We actually have had overwhelmingly positive feedback from just talking to people.
23:44 --> 23:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I was even on the phone with a with a big podcast or bigger podcast to us and he immediately was like, what a great show.
23:49 --> 23:53 [SPEAKER_00]: Here's he gave us the idea for a person that we should cover, but just here is some comments from them real quick.
23:53 --> 23:57 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't actually have these on our list, but I found them in our own personal chat.
23:57 --> 23:58 [SPEAKER_00]: that was pulling up here.
23:58 --> 24:02 [SPEAKER_00]: Gentle Gentile looking forward to series, keep up the good work.
24:02 --> 24:08 [SPEAKER_00]: Imperio Suss says wonderful idea, physics fan has them, follow her for my thoughts for a very long time by the way.
24:09 --> 24:14 [SPEAKER_00]: He says sounds like an amazing show and looking forward to listening to it, I hope you do some on he mentioned a couple of different people we should do.
24:15 --> 24:16 [SPEAKER_00]: and all the presidents of the USA.
24:16 --> 24:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He then actually sent us another list later on of like a bunch of scientists that we should cover.
24:20 --> 24:23 [SPEAKER_00]: So he's been a fan, uh, Ellen over on Patreon.
24:23 --> 24:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to give any spoilers for people like me who do not know if I'm new but I agree with your opinion in conclusion.
24:28 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_00]: So interesting.
24:29 --> 24:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you very much.
24:31 --> 24:34 [SPEAKER_00]: Chris, over here, says I've been listening to her via thoughts for quite a long time.
24:34 --> 24:38 [SPEAKER_00]: This new series continues to tradition of looking up people from history explaining their influence to today's audience.
24:39 --> 24:40 [SPEAKER_00]: Another excellent episode for my studios.
24:41 --> 24:46 [SPEAKER_00]: I've been listening to the show and found out that says constant, he would be a great case study for this show.
24:46 --> 24:47 [SPEAKER_00]: Hey.
24:48 --> 24:49 [SPEAKER_00]: We have some good news for you, Beth.
24:49 --> 24:58 [SPEAKER_00]: If you think Constantine would be a good remunation, I did a research paper on his life for years ago, came away pondering, also was about time Troy up to his game and brought in a Dutchman to co-host.
24:58 --> 24:59 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, so there you go.
24:59 --> 25:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I got the be the Mike Winger, but I get to up my game by having you here with me.
25:03 --> 25:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you, Ben.
25:04 --> 25:06 [SPEAKER_01]: We're all thinking it for all these years.
25:07 --> 25:10 [SPEAKER_01]: No, no bad word about Joel and we love him and it was great.
25:10 --> 25:15 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so it's just that he doesn't live in Indonesia, so he can't sit in a room.
25:15 --> 25:20 [SPEAKER_00]: And he also has real missionaries and real time as others show that he's busy with, so he's he's got a lot on his plate.
25:21 --> 25:30 [SPEAKER_00]: Um, and this one's nice because it came from a former student of mine who found out about this show through my running app Strava who he says, um, yeah songs says loved it.
25:30 --> 25:32 [SPEAKER_00]: The new episode was pretty uncontroversial.
25:32 --> 25:34 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm waiting for an episode where you and Mark disagree.
25:35 --> 25:44 [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's very funny because it was so much more controversial than we ever expected it to be, but I, but making the case, the guy's not, it doesn't believe in the Trinity.
25:44 --> 25:46 [SPEAKER_00]: It's not very controversial when you think about it.
25:46 --> 25:52 [SPEAKER_00]: So that was just a few I pulled up real fast, just in a chat that I'd sent to Mark to kind of show him some of the positive things we were receiving.
25:52 --> 25:56 [SPEAKER_00]: So if you're hearing this and thinking, oh no, you know, nobody likes to show me this show is a bad idea.
25:57 --> 25:59 [SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely eight out of 10 comments are positive.
25:59 --> 26:05 [SPEAKER_00]: We one out of 10 is neutral in the other one out of 10 is negative and to be honest That's just making anything at any point.
26:05 --> 26:18 [SPEAKER_00]: You're never going to create a show that everyone loves so we don't take a personal at all But I just wanted to make sure if you're listening that you weren't going oh wow They've really been receiving a lot of heat the overwhelming responses actually been something to the effect of oh about time Why is this show never been made before?
26:20 --> 26:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so thank you for all the support.
26:22 --> 26:40 [SPEAKER_01]: As we're going through these comments, I think I have one closing one that I want to do about Newton because this was also I've just find it in our chat, indeed, which is a person who responded actually two times because I saw it later, but that's maybe just an ongoing ex discussion at that point.
26:41 --> 26:54 [SPEAKER_01]: he said, very strange that someone who understands church history would have a problem with Isaac Newton being a unitarian, seems like you would have more of a problem with Christians who persecuted unitarians, forcing people like Newton to keep an orthodox views quiet.
26:54 --> 27:06 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if this person actually listened to the episode, but I know for sure that actually mentioned is that that is actually a sad thing to me that he lived in such an environment where he couldn't actually be open about it, so there was no
27:07 --> 27:14 [SPEAKER_01]: room for, you know, people to talk with him, to sit down with him and be like, okay, you know, what are your arguments, what do we think, what do you think?
27:16 --> 27:25 [SPEAKER_01]: In a sense, I agree with this person that the environment that he was in, where it was so strict and where he was basically fair for his career, maybe even his life.
27:26 --> 27:28 [SPEAKER_01]: For his views is unhealthy.
27:29 --> 27:34 [SPEAKER_01]: That's yeah, that's I don't think a good Christian thing to do to force your views in that way.
27:34 --> 27:38 [SPEAKER_01]: So it's called MS is his ex handle.
27:38 --> 27:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, in a sense, I agree with that though that he says like, yeah, they kept him quiet.
27:45 --> 27:49 [SPEAKER_00]: But I would also point out that I think we know Church history pretty well.
27:49 --> 27:54 [SPEAKER_00]: We face the idea that Isaac Newton is a Christian, not a Christian because it rejects the Trinity.
27:54 --> 28:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But I also agree with you that I think it's a weird thing that'll happen for the next, and that's why we're going to have lots of material from that area where there are a lot of people who outwardly, they're like, yeah, I go to church, but they clearly live lives.
28:09 --> 28:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't align with it.
28:10 --> 28:11 [SPEAKER_00]: The Bible says that will happen.
28:12 --> 28:13 [SPEAKER_00]: Jesus was very clear.
28:13 --> 28:14 [SPEAKER_00]: There will be tears among the weak.
28:14 --> 28:16 [SPEAKER_00]: There will be people who, you know, call on me Lord, Lord, didn't I?
28:16 --> 28:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And they weren't really.
28:18 --> 28:21 [SPEAKER_00]: So it's not surprising to find that, but I also agree.
28:21 --> 28:28 [SPEAKER_00]: If you were throwing somebody in jail because they weren't a believer in the Trinity that you shouldn't have done that and shouldn't do that.
28:29 --> 28:31 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that's a common problem anymore.
28:31 --> 28:32 [SPEAKER_00]: I think that was a problem.
28:32 --> 28:36 [SPEAKER_00]: If it was a big problem for an era, it is, we've moved quite a long past that era.
28:36 --> 28:39 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we've moved now to discussing this on podcasts.
28:40 --> 28:42 [SPEAKER_01]: And on X and on social media.
28:42 --> 28:43 [SPEAKER_00]: Quite free to do that.
28:43 --> 28:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So we moved on.
28:44 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so that's a good thing.
28:45 --> 28:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
28:46 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that covers all your feedback on Newton.
28:49 --> 28:49 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much.
28:50 --> 28:53 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we're going to do feedback on the feedback episodes.
28:53 --> 28:53 [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
28:53 --> 28:55 [SPEAKER_01]: So we're still open to your feedback.
28:55 --> 28:56 [SPEAKER_00]: People really believe comments.
28:57 --> 29:01 [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, maybe if a really good one comes through, we might read it somewhere, but I think we won't be.
29:01 --> 29:03 [SPEAKER_00]: So no, did we get it right?
29:03 --> 29:04 [SPEAKER_00]: Put it in the comments below.
29:04 --> 29:08 [SPEAKER_00]: But with there, but the feedback on feedback comment episodes may not be happening.
29:08 --> 29:09 [SPEAKER_00]: No, not short.
29:10 --> 29:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe, yeah, maybe you just get choice shouting at you or something.
29:14 --> 29:16 [SPEAKER_01]: No, that's a joke.
29:16 --> 29:17 [SPEAKER_01]: He will not shout at you.
29:17 --> 29:19 [SPEAKER_01]: He will be very gentle at you in a certain voice.
29:19 --> 29:21 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, in a certain voice that is
29:28 --> 29:54 [SPEAKER_01]: The second episode, episode two that we put out was on John D. Rockefeller, where the great intro from Troy, I remember that one's still very vividly, and this one's interesting, because we landed on a yes, like there's just simply to us was there no evidence really that he wasn't, and most of sort of the controversy surrounding him that we pointed out was from his son.
29:55 --> 29:57 [SPEAKER_00]: doing some things that were not very Christian.
29:58 --> 29:59 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's where we landed on.
29:59 --> 30:03 [SPEAKER_01]: But we got some comments just you know to help us rethink maybe.
30:03 --> 30:06 [SPEAKER_01]: So let me just start here with the first one from YouTube.
30:06 --> 30:11 [SPEAKER_01]: Someone commented, Rockefeller helped promote liberal Christianity in North America.
30:11 --> 30:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Look though for further than his support.
30:14 --> 30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: Man, my English is getting worse and worse.
30:18 --> 30:18 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry
30:23 --> 30:25 [SPEAKER_00]: You're just adding authenticity to this.
30:25 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_01]: OK, that's it.
30:26 --> 30:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:27 --> 30:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Luke Noferder than his support of Harry Fostick, his massive donations to Riverside Church, and donations to seminaries like Union Theological Seminary.
30:37 --> 30:44 [SPEAKER_01]: And then actually, I think this connection to this man named Harry Fostick gets mentioned again by Chris Galenek on X.
30:44 --> 30:50 [SPEAKER_01]: He was a substantial supporter of Harry Emerson Fostick's radio program that broadcast and popularized.
30:51 --> 30:53 [SPEAKER_01]: liberal Christianity in the 1930s.
30:54 --> 31:00 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to need your help here, Troy, because I have no idea who Harry Emerson falls to the ground.
31:00 --> 31:05 [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone knows everyone plays a little faustic in the morning as they're getting ready for work or whatever.
31:06 --> 31:06 [SPEAKER_00]: Come on now.
31:07 --> 31:14 [SPEAKER_00]: So in the early 1900s, in America, there is a explosion of progressive kind of Christianity.
31:14 --> 31:25 [SPEAKER_00]: In Europe, that had already kind of begun in the late 1800s and a lot of places, especially in England and France and Germany, had really taken off by the time that Bonhoeffer is doing stuff in the 20s and 30s.
31:25 --> 31:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, progressive Christianity was considered like the conservative alternative.
31:29 --> 31:32 [SPEAKER_00]: There wasn't really no conservative Christianity at all at that point.
31:33 --> 31:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, and there became a big battle between the fundamentalist and progress.
31:36 --> 31:43 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're not going to, this, the, the point of the feedback episode is not to dig into it, checking into controversial church issue.
31:43 --> 31:46 [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, Harry Emerson Fazdick was on the more progressive side.
31:46 --> 31:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He pushed the idea that Christianity was about social gospel issues and that the church had, and they, and the church, these people,
31:53 --> 31:55 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to put in this in the best light possible.
31:56 --> 31:56 [SPEAKER_00]: I am not a progressive.
31:56 --> 31:58 [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't agree with some of these things.
31:58 --> 32:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But if we're putting it in their perspective, the church had gotten so into being the heart and hands of Jesus in their own churches, but they had stocked being the hands and feet of Jesus doing good works around the world.
32:09 --> 32:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Now that sounds really good on paper and you might even say, I look around the church and I think that's still true today.
32:14 --> 32:21 [SPEAKER_00]: The problem is they got someone to be in the hands of feet that they oftentimes would leave out the Jesus plate, uh, part all together.
32:22 --> 32:28 [SPEAKER_00]: In the Presbyterian church, for example, J. Gresham, Machen pointed out that they were sending missionaries to feed.
32:29 --> 32:34 [SPEAKER_00]: and help the hurting, they weren't even allowed to share Jesus and they weren't trying to.
32:35 --> 32:40 [SPEAKER_00]: So, but they're like, oh, we're filling the command to feed the hungry, but you're not giving them the gospel, and that became a huge issue in the, you know.
32:41 --> 32:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So,
32:43 --> 32:55 [SPEAKER_00]: did Rockefeller help Fosdick get on the radio and did he help with some of these seminaries that were not good and the answer to Iraqi immigrant on YouTube.
32:55 --> 32:58 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that was this board name.
33:00 --> 33:01 [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you are correct.
33:01 --> 33:09 [SPEAKER_00]: But to give the, if again, we're not here to fight with you, but to give you the kind of opposite perspective to Rockefeller had money in so many places.
33:09 --> 33:14 [SPEAKER_00]: He also was funding the Southern Baptist theological seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.
33:14 --> 33:18 [SPEAKER_00]: He also was funding the Atlanta Baptist female seminary in that became spellmen college.
33:18 --> 33:22 [SPEAKER_00]: He also helped fund the University of Chicago as a Baptist institution.
33:22 --> 33:25 [SPEAKER_00]: Like he was funding these progressive Christian illness.
33:25 --> 33:27 [SPEAKER_01]: He was also funding these other Christian illness.
33:29 --> 33:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that he knew we're all his money was going and I don't think he was a theologian.
33:33 --> 33:37 [SPEAKER_00]: I think he looked at it and said, Christian, good, give him money.
33:38 --> 33:41 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure that he understood and you could get on to him for that.
33:41 --> 33:45 [SPEAKER_00]: Like a lack of discernment is bad, especially when you are supporting these big causes.
33:46 --> 33:48 [SPEAKER_00]: But I can't be wrong.
33:48 --> 33:50 [SPEAKER_00]: My opinion on this would be I think it was a lack of discernment.
33:51 --> 33:53 [SPEAKER_00]: More than a, I don't believe in Jesus.
33:53 --> 33:55 [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a way of subverting Christianity.
33:56 --> 33:56 [SPEAKER_00]: And
33:57 --> 34:02 [SPEAKER_00]: It's also important to note that progressive Christianity, oftentimes I would argue is a worse type of Christian.
34:02 --> 34:09 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it can be very bad, but it a person who loves Jesus, but is a progressive is not not a Christian.
34:11 --> 34:16 [SPEAKER_00]: And a part of me hurts, sorry, a little bit of a little part of me is like, ah, it kind of feels uncomfortable to say that.
34:16 --> 34:23 [SPEAKER_00]: But if they love Jesus with all the hurt my and soul, they accept the word of God, they're being a progressive does not discuss, you know, there will be some progressive Christians.
34:23 --> 34:25 [SPEAKER_00]: And heaven, do I think that's the best way to follow God?
34:26 --> 34:28 [SPEAKER_00]: I personally do not, that's why I'm not a progressive.
34:29 --> 34:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But I'm not going to put a standard on, you know, what makes a Christian, that the Bible does not put on what makes a Christian.
34:35 --> 34:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And the Bible does not say, love the Lord your heart with all your mind, soul and strength, and do not be a progressive, like that's not what the text says.
34:42 --> 34:53 [SPEAKER_00]: So Rockefeller, I don't see any evidence he was a progressive, and the fact that he supported some progressive movements alongside other more conservative ones, I don't think that disqualifies him as Christian.
34:53 --> 34:56 [SPEAKER_00]: Now, did some of those progressive Christian elements go on to harm things?
34:58 --> 35:01 [SPEAKER_00]: But again, also being a progressive does not make you not a Christian.
35:01 --> 35:17 [SPEAKER_00]: And we have to be careful that we don't put political fencing and structures over the gospel because that's, we can, we can, we can argue whether those are good things or bad things, but we can't put that fence over and say, because he was a progressive, he thus is not a Christian.
35:18 --> 35:24 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, thank you Troy for that little little help there glad that you could help.
35:25 --> 35:28 [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so that answers that comment.
35:28 --> 35:29 [SPEAKER_01]: Let me look here.
35:29 --> 35:34 [SPEAKER_01]: I think this next comment actually goes a little bit into sort of like his business practices.
35:34 --> 35:44 [SPEAKER_01]: So so for that ex-gracia response, if I remember correctly, he uses donations to get his people on boards of colleges
35:49 --> 36:01 [SPEAKER_01]: If this was the case, his donations were a long con to get done, what he wanted, and in a prestigious way, not a low-class snake, oil salesman like his dad, if he said he owed his dad a great depth for how much he taught him that raises questions for me.
36:02 --> 36:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And like you said at the beginning, if he is giving all his money away to organizations, they are going to say negative things about him.
36:08 --> 36:21 [SPEAKER_01]: If his father and grandfather were terrible people, and his son was a terrible person, was he as saint in the midst of wolves, or was he better at being a con man than them in a Christian world, hard to know what to think about him.
36:23 --> 36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: That's there's a there's a lot there.
36:25 --> 36:25 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
36:25 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I knew them.
36:26 --> 36:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:26 --> 36:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Great points.
36:27 --> 36:31 [SPEAKER_00]: These are, you know, sometimes I some of the arguments we get on here and I go, yeah, you know what?
36:31 --> 36:33 [SPEAKER_00]: I dismissed dismissed like the unitarian thing.
36:34 --> 36:35 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not you're making my case for me.
36:35 --> 36:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Why he's not a Christian.
36:37 --> 36:38 [SPEAKER_00]: These are excellent points.
36:38 --> 36:42 [SPEAKER_00]: I can't I don't want to dismiss them out of hand.
36:42 --> 36:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say like, well, here's why all of these things are wrong or, you know, I actually think these are the in a lot of ways to crux in the matter that we need to wrestle with.
36:49 --> 36:50 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
36:50 --> 36:52 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think actually the last line.
36:52 --> 36:55 [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's where I'm landing on with with you as well.
36:55 --> 36:59 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, yeah, it's hard to know what to think about him.
36:59 --> 37:03 [SPEAKER_01]: I'm that's that's what I. Yeah, in the end, we don't know.
37:03 --> 37:05 [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we say every episode that we do.
37:06 --> 37:07 [SPEAKER_01]: In the end, we don't know.
37:07 --> 37:09 [SPEAKER_01]: We just look at the things that we can find.
37:10 --> 37:14 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you, you make some good points here that I think are at least questionable.
37:16 --> 37:20 [SPEAKER_00]: If I can answer to the best, and this is just me speculating somewhere way out here in speculation.
37:21 --> 37:24 [SPEAKER_00]: Did he use colleges and medical things to influence in things his way?
37:24 --> 37:26 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think he probably did.
37:27 --> 37:29 [SPEAKER_00]: Does that make you not a Christian automatically?
37:29 --> 37:38 [SPEAKER_00]: No, it does raise some ethical stakes of what you're doing, but any business will try to get the people that like them the most to support.
37:39 --> 37:42 [SPEAKER_00]: That is a business practice, whether or not it's good one,
37:45 --> 37:47 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that would automatically disqualify him.
37:47 --> 37:53 [SPEAKER_00]: As for his father and grandfather, they were pretty, actually we don't know if, if I recall correctly, we don't even know what his grandfather did.
37:53 --> 37:56 [SPEAKER_00]: His grandfather just showed up with money at a fun time and then disappeared.
37:57 --> 38:00 [SPEAKER_00]: So to say his grandfather was a con man, is actually not quite right.
38:00 --> 38:03 [SPEAKER_00]: Wild Bill, I think his name was, was, no, that was his dad.
38:03 --> 38:04 [SPEAKER_00]: The dad was devil Bill.
38:04 --> 38:05 [SPEAKER_00]: I don't remember what his dad is grandpa was.
38:05 --> 38:10 [SPEAKER_00]: His grandpa just showed up, had fun, and disappeared, so he wasn't exactly a con man, but his dad was.
38:10 --> 38:13 [SPEAKER_00]: And the only person who said this, we did have a couple people say he was a con man, like his dad.
38:14 --> 38:16 [SPEAKER_00]: We don't want to put the sin of the father on the son.
38:16 --> 38:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I just, you know, you, you probably know people who are raised, you maybe you were raised with some bad parents.
38:22 --> 38:23 [SPEAKER_00]: You're not your parents, right?
38:23 --> 38:29 [SPEAKER_00]: And Rockefeller, well, I don't want to say he was a con man because now he did say I learned a lot from my dad.
38:29 --> 38:35 [SPEAKER_00]: But I got the impression I learned how to see through tricks and I learned how not to be conned in the future.
38:36 --> 38:39 [SPEAKER_00]: not, I learned how to con people from my dad.
38:39 --> 38:41 [SPEAKER_00]: And if we're gonna give him, you know, we'll stop on the rest for his dad.
38:41 --> 38:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Let's also remember his mom was a very faithful, love the Lord kind of woman who was very strong about raising her son in the church.
38:50 --> 38:52 [SPEAKER_00]: Probably so she didn't end up like his dad.
38:52 --> 39:03 [SPEAKER_00]: And so if we're gonna give him a stop on the rest for his dad's lack of faith, we should note that his mom was far more present in his life and was very faithful attending church throughout our entire life.
39:03 --> 39:05 [SPEAKER_00]: And for, you know, making sure her children did as well.
39:06 --> 39:10 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I didn't want to give him as much of a predator out there as he can.
39:11 --> 39:11 [SPEAKER_00]: You are right, though.
39:12 --> 39:16 [SPEAKER_00]: There is a degree where his institutional money was so big.
39:16 --> 39:20 [SPEAKER_00]: He's so, there's so much propaganda out there if I'm his own people that will never fully know the truth.
39:22 --> 39:31 [SPEAKER_00]: But the fact, there is a little bit too, and maybe this was just a part of his business con, per se, a lot of rich people famous people didn't care if you thought they were Christian, you know?
39:31 --> 39:37 [SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he does care so much, the fact that he did want you to know that he had a faith in God is something.
39:37 --> 39:45 [SPEAKER_00]: It could be just a part of his charming, I wanna trick you, I'm just a nice, friendly Christian guy, but there are other business robberbearers weren't necessarily doing that.
39:45 --> 39:49 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't see that the other big titans of industry were trying to go out of the way to show
39:52 --> 40:00 [SPEAKER_00]: You can attend church and not be a Christian, but for 40 years he ran the Sunday school while running some of the biggest industries in the world.
40:01 --> 40:04 [SPEAKER_00]: If this was all part of a big con, it was very successful.
40:04 --> 40:09 [SPEAKER_00]: And you did it because you did make me go and it seems to be something there.
40:09 --> 40:11 [SPEAKER_00]: And that's a lot of work.
40:12 --> 40:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.
40:14 --> 40:22 [SPEAKER_01]: We have another comment here, from Steve Cook, if only because of how vilified he has become I tend to lean towards him being Christian.
40:24 --> 40:26 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's not a lot I can say about that.
40:27 --> 40:33 [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is sad, but I think we touched and Troy especially touched on this in the episode as well.
40:33 --> 40:42 [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of it is because it's on the things that he did in the name, using the name Rockefeller, really going towards like this liberalism.
40:45 --> 40:56 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the same way we can't have his dad, you know, lame John D. Rockefeller for what his dad did we can also not blame John D. Rockefeller for what his son did, although I think there's a little bit more influence from father to son.
40:57 --> 41:00 [SPEAKER_01]: There as well, we're not going to be talking about that right now.
41:01 --> 41:03 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you Steve for commenting.
41:03 --> 41:08 [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have one more comment by someone going by the handle Fraser.
41:08 --> 41:09 [SPEAKER_00]: I like this one.
41:09 --> 41:12 [SPEAKER_00]: Now because this name is similar to mine because we actually spell it differently.
41:13 --> 41:14 [SPEAKER_00]: Zevers is here.
41:14 --> 41:16 [SPEAKER_01]: This is this is right up Troy Street.
41:16 --> 41:22 [SPEAKER_01]: He loves a good, you know, a good leaning towards conspiracy theory kind of thing.
41:22 --> 41:25 [SPEAKER_01]: So Fraser says he was part of the world power system.
41:25 --> 41:26 [SPEAKER_01]: Oil is a scam.
41:26 --> 41:28 [SPEAKER_01]: There was free energy before he was even born.
41:28 --> 41:30 [SPEAKER_01]: You know, cars can run in water right.
41:30 --> 41:33 [SPEAKER_01]: Oil medicines are history old fraudulent.
41:33 --> 41:35 [SPEAKER_00]: Troy, you know, he has bigger way.
41:35 --> 41:39 [SPEAKER_00]: There was a second code where he says just one of a million examples of how we've been lied to.
41:39 --> 41:58 [SPEAKER_00]: When I was a kid, my dad paid good money to have our lawn sprayed to get rid of danylines, danyline benefits roots, great for digestive health roots, as a liver tonic, and stimulate bile production, leaves high in potassium, leaves act as a potent natural diuretic to help flesh out excess fluid, flowers packed with antioxidants, and polyphenols, flowers help reduce inflammation.
41:59 --> 42:07 [SPEAKER_00]: And I guess as I kind of the argument was like petroleum fertilizer, which was popularized by the Rockefellers, got rid of these things, and you'll see this they go around.
42:07 --> 42:13 [SPEAKER_00]: TikTok, they go around Instagram, they go around YouTube shorts, this kind of idea of like we were all healthy, and then the Rockefeller should have.
42:13 --> 42:14 [SPEAKER_00]: And there meet.
42:15 --> 42:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to be willing to say maybe there's some truth to that maybe some of the things we are spraying on stuff is bad and maybe we didn't do need to be a little more all natural.
42:23 --> 42:29 [SPEAKER_00]: I would argue that agricultural production has, you know, quant-wippled since the 1900s.
42:29 --> 42:35 [SPEAKER_00]: So we're doing something right, clearly, but also obesity and stuff is bad and a lot of our food is not super healthy.
42:35 --> 42:41 [SPEAKER_00]: So I can see here's the thing, that petroleum fertilizer came out years after
42:43 --> 42:50 [SPEAKER_00]: So, if you're mad at Rockefeller because he killed Danny Lyons in your yard, you're mad at his son or maybe his grandson, you're not mad at him.
42:50 --> 42:53 [SPEAKER_00]: He had no part in killing the Danny Lyons in your yard.
42:53 --> 42:59 [SPEAKER_00]: He was, I looked it up, he was dead for five years before the Rockefeller money ever got into fertilizer.
43:00 --> 43:02 [SPEAKER_00]: And even if he had been alive, he would have been like 98.
43:02 --> 43:05 [SPEAKER_00]: So, I don't think he was personally overseeing the fertilizer production.
43:05 --> 43:06 [SPEAKER_00]: That is nothing to do.
43:06 --> 43:10 [SPEAKER_00]: As for oil being the scam, and there was free energy before he was born,
43:11 --> 43:22 [SPEAKER_00]: I'm currently reading the book, Moby Dick this summer, and I don't know if you know this, but the way they got oil before the oil that we used today, it was by killing whales with harpoons.
43:23 --> 43:34 [SPEAKER_00]: It was exhausting, expensive, and extremely difficult, and people would get on boats and sail all the way over to Indonesia or all the way up into the Arctic coast, kill whales like de-oil them.
43:35 --> 43:58 [SPEAKER_00]: it would take you it would take years you would get on a wailing expedition in the movie take the book he's goes away for three years to come back with enough money to live and it was exhausting as expensive boats would sink the whales would destroy ships that was the amount of effort it took to get oil before it just started springing from the ground with the oil that i don't think it's true to say that oil is a scam and energy was free before here
43:58 --> 44:04 [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think the point this person is trying to make here is that there was other energy besides oil.
44:05 --> 44:13 [SPEAKER_01]: Like, and I've heard this one before that there are manufacturing electric cars or like inventing electric cars at the same time they were inventing the combustion engine.
44:14 --> 44:16 [SPEAKER_01]: But there was just more money to be made with the combustion engine.
44:17 --> 44:19 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think maybe I'm wrong here.
44:19 --> 44:22 [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe Troy really wants to go deep into the conspiracy well here.
44:23 --> 44:27 [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's what our purpose is here right now to go through these comments.
44:27 --> 44:33 [SPEAKER_01]: The only thing I want to say here because he said this person Fraser says he was part of the world power system.
44:33 --> 44:34 [SPEAKER_01]: What else can I say?
44:35 --> 44:37 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think money corrupts.
44:38 --> 44:45 [SPEAKER_01]: I do think being a good Christian with a lot of money is really hard.
44:45 --> 44:49 [SPEAKER_01]: I think Jesus says as well when he talks with the young man,
44:52 --> 45:02 [SPEAKER_01]: But that for me actually only really sort of speaks towards John D. Rockefeller's character in the way that he did, like he did some things, he was a shrewd businessman.
45:03 --> 45:11 [SPEAKER_01]: And he might have heard some people along the way when he was building his empire as a business empire.
45:11 --> 45:18 [SPEAKER_00]: Which by the way, he was kind of point to the fact that he had a kind of a heart-change moment to in his middle age where he was going to church.
45:18 --> 45:21 [SPEAKER_00]: He was following, you know, he would have, I think he would have considered his own Christian.
45:22 --> 45:24 [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it was his 40s or 50s.
45:24 --> 45:28 [SPEAKER_00]: He had a real life-changing moment where he had realized he had made money, his God.
45:29 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_00]: So even Rockefeller would agree with you that there was a time where I was overwhelmingly possessed by the love of money.
45:36 --> 45:36 [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:37 --> 45:38 [SPEAKER_00]: And then he stopped being that way.
45:38 --> 45:39 [SPEAKER_00]: At least that's his argument.
45:40 --> 45:45 [SPEAKER_01]: So to me, that's just another plus towards the S that we already mentioned in the original episode.
45:45 --> 45:47 [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, I think that's it.
45:47 --> 45:47 [SPEAKER_01]: Troy.
45:47 --> 45:48 [SPEAKER_00]: We had one more.
45:48 --> 45:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Will on Spotify said, I view Rockefeller in the same way that if you most others that subscribe to a progressive kind of Christianity, I hope they have a saving relationship with Christ, but it's not always seem to be in the forefront.
45:58 --> 46:02 [SPEAKER_00]: I hold this view for Rockefeller due to his relationship with Harry Emerson Vazig.
46:02 --> 46:10 [SPEAKER_00]: But just as well as in the major maintain the relationship with one another, Rockefeller's cordial relationship does not mean that he didn't know Christ exactly right.
46:11 --> 46:17 [SPEAKER_00]: Progressive and also by the way, fundamentalist Christian, anybody Christian, your relationship with Jesus is what matters most.
46:17 --> 46:27 [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes the progressive, the label we put in front of Christianity becomes too important and it can be hard to see whether that person did or did not have a relationship with Christ and that is always
46:32 --> 46:45 [SPEAKER_00]: but it doesn't mean you don't love the Lord you're got with all your heart and soul and strength and Rockefeller, you know, I think we certainly wish the best for him and hope for him, but I also think there's more evidence and the positive camp, at least for me.
46:46 --> 46:51 [SPEAKER_00]: And having gone through the feedback, having seen the comments, we do appreciate all that you left.
46:52 --> 46:54 [SPEAKER_00]: And I think you guys did a great job of bringing up all the points.
46:54 --> 46:55 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of them were the ones I expected.
46:55 --> 46:58 [SPEAKER_00]: Some of them, I didn't know about the Harry Emerson and Fossic Relationships.
46:59 --> 47:00 [SPEAKER_00]: I do appreciate that aspect of it.
47:01 --> 47:02 [SPEAKER_00]: But I am still not.
47:02 --> 47:03 [SPEAKER_00]: I am not.
47:03 --> 47:07 [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't feel like I got moved over out of the Rockefeller was a Christian camp.
47:07 --> 47:13 [SPEAKER_00]: I still feel like the evidence is more supportive that he was and he wasn't, but maybe you you're listening to new disagree.
47:14 --> 47:19 [SPEAKER_01]: And I think I'm in the same spot, but thank you still for all your comments like we said.
47:19 --> 47:24 [SPEAKER_01]: We learned a little bit more about some of his things that he did about progressive Christianity.
47:26 --> 47:27 [SPEAKER_01]: So that's it.
47:27 --> 47:30 [SPEAKER_01]: There's our rundown of the comments for Newton for Rockefeller.
47:32 --> 47:34 [SPEAKER_01]: So please leave us more comments on the episodes that are coming out.
47:35 --> 47:36 [SPEAKER_01]: Francis Drake is out already.
47:36 --> 47:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You can listen to that great story.
47:38 --> 47:41 [SPEAKER_01]: It will feel like you've been around the world once you've listened to it.
47:42 --> 47:45 [SPEAKER_01]: And then I think we have Charlemagne lined up.
47:45 --> 47:48 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and that's, you know, not entirely uncontroversial either.
47:48 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, Charlotte means a big one.
47:50 --> 47:50 [SPEAKER_00]: We're excited for that.
47:50 --> 47:55 [SPEAKER_00]: When we go out, I think after that is Mozart, we have, we have a president coming up.
47:55 --> 48:02 [SPEAKER_00]: We have, uh, one of the history's most famous writers coming out, and then we have a history's most famous explorer.
48:02 --> 48:06 [SPEAKER_00]: I think well, I know, maybe, you know, Christmas is a second of the world.
48:06 --> 48:08 [SPEAKER_00]: most famous explorers though coming out.
48:08 --> 48:11 [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of good stuff coming this season.
48:11 --> 48:15 [SPEAKER_00]: Leave your comments on the other episodes so we can share them on future feedback episodes.
48:15 --> 48:23 [SPEAKER_00]: Honestly, this part of it is probably one of my favorite parts of this show is that we have a place for us to talk and hear each other's ideas.
48:23 --> 48:29 [SPEAKER_00]: That to me is one of the greatest parts of doing Christian or not, is that I get to see what you guys think and talk to you a little bit more directly.
48:30 --> 48:37 [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so keep harassing Troy on social media and leave me out of it and no, I'm I'm actually not on social media.
48:38 --> 48:38 [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot find me there.
48:38 --> 48:42 [SPEAKER_01]: So just leave it all with Troy, but thank you for listening.
48:42 --> 48:45 [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for tuning in for this feedback episode of Chris Chernaud.
48:46 --> 48:46 [SPEAKER_01]: My name is Mark.
48:47 --> 48:48 [SPEAKER_00]: And my name is Troy.
48:48 --> 48:49 [SPEAKER_00]: Make sure you subscribe.
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48:56 --> 48:57 [SPEAKER_01]: See you next time.